Third Party Press

Imperial German Depot marks

8x57mauser

Senior Member
Is there a listing anywhere of Imperial German Depot marks? I feel like I remember seeing on at one time. Trying to identify the ones on the buttplate on a Gew.88 I have.

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Went through two depots Thorn for #10 and Spandau for #3. You can tell that rifle saw a lot of service.

Thanks. Condition wise its practically unissued, it definitely saw action, but its really clean with good stock makings and finish.
Im assuming one of those depot stops could be for the 88/05 conversion.

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According to Storz, "Gewehr & Karabiner 98" page 129:

1 Danzig
2 Küstrin
3 Spandau
4 Köln
5 Koblenz
6 Mainz
7 Rastatt
8 Ingolstadt
9 Königsberg
10 Thorn
11 Posen

There are higher numbers known, but not identified.
 
Storz Modell98 book, page 129, has a list of the original 11 depots and a description of how they came about and were developed during the war. Specifically, he states that as the war dragged on artillery depots were brought online to deal with small arms repairs (Danzig and Spandau both had artillery depots, there were actually quite a few of them throughout Germany, 17 of which added small arms workshops during the war), further late in the war 5 workshops were officially instituted on the eastern front due to their isolation and time restraints of sending weapons back to be repaired. it is a sure bet these gun repair shops existed far earlier than their official authorization.

Any number above 11 is not known (as to locale), but probably relate to the artillery depots or possibly a new collection center created later in the war.
 
Thanks. Condition wise its practically unissued, it definitely saw action, but its really clean with good stock makings and finish.
Im assuming one of those depot stops could be for the 88/05 conversion.

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I like it post it up on the Imperial section by itself looks to be a nice rifle. To be honest it's really hard to find one of those in that kind of condition. Good find too say the least.
 
I like it post it up on the Imperial section by itself looks to be a nice rifle. To be honest it's really hard to find one of those in that kind of condition. Good find too say the least.

I did a detailed post on it 4 years ago. I've had it about 10 years now. Turked rear sight but i don't think it ever left Germany, it came out of an estate of a WWI vet I suspect he might have brought it home. As I understand the Turkish markings were added in Germany before they were sent to Turkey. But because of its condition i don't think it ever went, too clean and matching.

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?9790-1890-Steyr-Gew-88-05
 
It is a sure bet that the crescent moon was German applied, not sure about the RS scale, - I say this because there are rifles that have the crescent on the receiver (all late Mauser/1917's or 1918's) but have signs of interwar German or Polish use. It is almost a certainty that some of the arms shipments (trains) were stopped or diverted after the debacle in September 1918 (collapse of Bulgaria), and these rifles returned ended up in Germany or at least in one case Poland.

After the war there is almost no possibility that rifles in Turkey made their way back to Germany or Poland, therefore because crescent moon rifles exist in German and Polish service the marking had to be applied in Germany, - at least in some cases.
 
Interesting. Would you say then that because of its condition that it is possible it never made it to Turkey?

It is a sure bet that the crescent moon was German applied, not sure about the RS scale, - I say this because there are rifles that have the crescent on the receiver (all late Mauser/1917's or 1918's) but have signs of interwar German or Polish use. It is almost a certainty that some of the arms shipments (trains) were stopped or diverted after the debacle in September 1918 (collapse of Bulgaria), and these rifles returned ended up in Germany or at least in one case Poland.

After the war there is almost no possibility that rifles in Turkey made their way back to Germany or Poland, therefore because crescent moon rifles exist in German and Polish service the marking had to be applied in Germany, - at least in some cases.
 
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Its condition is exceptional for a Turkish used rifle, but not unheard of, I have seen Turk used rifles in very nice condition, some looking hardly used, - like some of the MO/17 n-block sniper rigs.

I would say the condition suggests the rifle never served the Turks, but condition alone is not definitive.

Interesting. Would you say then that because of its condition that it is possible it never made it to Turkey?
 
How about other Principality Depots? Here is my Crown/FA over Crown/B 1917 Saxon depot repair of a 1916 Danzig.

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That cypher on the bp represents Dresden Saxony, the ammunition factory, Storz also mentions this operation. As i recall, he said Würt. was the only state without a ordnance shop, though Mauser Oberndorf is also in Würt.

Email me and i will send you a brief scan of pg.129 regarding this section.

Off hand, most of these towns Wolfgang lists from Storz are old government installation towns, Kustrin, Rastatt, Ingolstadt, and Thorn were old fortress towns, some of which were probably empty or available for such a task, Coblenz and a couple others were fortresses and AK Headquarters (later HQ to the AEF in Germany, at least until Republicans came to power and returned sanity to the US... back then Republicans were actual Conservatives and didn't believe in crusades and foreign military adventures, at least outside of the western hemisphere). Others like Danzig and Spandau also had forts and artillery and rifle arsenals, - such facilities were common in Germany during this time and it is probable many such sites were used (old forts, almost all obsolete, were useful for this type of work. Many were shut down before WWI, and almost all were after the war, though I know Kustrin and ingolstadt remained important... some "Black Reichswehr", the name some called the disbanded Freikorps, targeted Kustrin in the early 1920's maybe during the 1923 insanity, but the attempt was thwarted...)

Storz M98 book is less "thrilling" than his other two books, but it is a must have with a great deal of information a collector needs. Before his book came out things like Dresden were unknown in the US, collectors recognized the Saxon cypher of course, but few could have imagined the ammunition factory there opened a gun shop that made sterngewehrs...
 
Kar 98

Could you please look at the album I have posted. I would appreciate any information you might have. I am a little confused between the Kar 98 and the Kar 98a. I thought they they are 2 separate rifles. I believe a new barrel may have been put on in Danzig. The K R 1 stamped on the barrel. The stamps on the right side of the receiver do not match the proofs for the 98a. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.k98kforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=174201&d=1522275725
 
They are not separate rifles, - the distinction lies in time.

All Imperial era (1898-1918) Karabiner 98's were just that, "Kar.98", it was the end of the war and the introduction of the Kar.98b (rifle length, basically a Gew.98 with a sidesling arrangement, modified for mounted soldiers- horseback or motorized) that necessitated the distinction. At that time the Kar.98 became the Kar.98a to distinguish it from the Kar.98b and later Kar.98k (a shortened Kar.98b, though also related to Mauser's experiments with the Standard Modell, - two unrelated experiments that followed an obvious trend, shortening the Kar.98b service rifle to a handier length)

Today we use these 1924-31 designations to distinguish between the general variations, but the subject is more involved depending how detailed you want to get. (there is also the Short karabiner 98 made by Erfurt 1900-1905, generally, there are earlier test rifles known and maybe a 1906, I do not recall offhand)

The KR. 1 means it was a Krupp blank with a lot number "1", just tells you who provided the steel for your barrel. Krupp Steel, a very common supplier. I would have to see more of the rifle, barreled receiver, to say more.

Could you please look at the album I have posted. I would appreciate any information you might have. I am a little confused between the Kar 98 and the Kar 98a. I thought they they are 2 separate rifles. I believe a new barrel may have been put on in Danzig. The K R 1 stamped on the barrel. The stamps on the right side of the receiver do not match the proofs for the 98a. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
Many Thanks

They are not separate rifles, - the distinction lies in time.

All Imperial era (1898-1918) Karabiner 98's were just that, "Kar.98", it was the end of the war and the introduction of the Kar.98b (rifle length, basically a Gew.98 with a sidesling arrangement, modified for mounted soldiers- horseback or motorized) that necessitated the distinction. At that time the Kar.98 became the Kar.98a to distinguish it from the Kar.98b and later Kar.98k (a shortened Kar.98b, though also related to Mauser's experiments with the Standard Modell, - two unrelated experiments that followed an obvious trend, shortening the Kar.98b service rifle to a handier length)

Today we use these 1924-31 designations to distinguish between the general variations, but the subject is more involved depending how detailed you want to get. (there is also the Short karabiner 98 made by Erfurt 1900-1905, generally, there are earlier test rifles known and maybe a 1906, I do not recall offhand)

The KR. 1 means it was a Krupp blank with a lot number "1", just tells you who provided the steel for your barrel. Krupp Steel, a very common supplier. I would have to see more of the rifle, barreled receiver, to say more.

http://www.k98kforum.com/album.php?albumid=141

I believe this will get you to my album. I appreciate you taking the time to look at and comment on the rifle. The Paul Mauser Archive has his "Production, calculation and sales book." That would be a goldmine of information if it were reproduced. I know I would like to have a copy.

Again Thank you


The Paul Mauser Archive replied to my query. "No records are available for the Spandau production." Want to say thanks to them here.

www.paul-mauser-archive.com
 
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I believe I have already commented on the 98a? Perhaps on Gunboards or earlier here.. regarding the barrel, I doubt it is replaced but you do not show the barrel serial for some reason. Typically pre-war production follows less consistency on acceptance patterns, it is not necessarily a problem that the acceptance carried on the barrel deviates from the RR, though limited research has been done here (limited by a lack of samples to compare RR & barrel acceptance patterns, most people will not or do not show the barrel coding on the 98a, probably because the hassle of disassembling the stock properly); however the fireproof looks right for a Spandau and such an early lot is also expected for such an early rifle. However if the serialing fonts are different then this could be a clue that the barrel has been replaced, but doubtful Danzig would have done so, higher ordnance staffs would typically add an acceptance on the RR for a re-placed barrel and the FP on the barrel is not Danzig in style, - most of which are fatter and more elaborate than other arsenals, kind of like a fat turkey.

Any evaluation requires good pictures of all the matching components, specifically the acceptance and serialing, you tried here, but left out the barrel serial. The rest of the rifle guessing w/o pictures.

Jon Speed already published the highlights from the archives, appropriately "Mauser Archives", sold by Collector Grade, it covers a lot of ground and not specifically on military production (which is all that interests me). Because of Jon Speed's work and collaboration with researchers, we know the broad strokes of Mauser's production, - Mauser is not the problem, the others are the mystery, especially the other arsenals, all of which are elusive to find information on. Mostly we go by trends on the rest, but Mauser and to a lesser extent DWM we have a rather good grasp of what they made and what they manufactured.

http://www.k98kforum.com/album.php?albumid=141

I believe this will get you to my album. I appreciate you taking the time to look at and comment on the rifle. The Paul Mauser Archive has his "Production, calculation and sales book." That would be a goldmine of information if it were reproduced. I know I would like to have a copy.

Again Thank you
 
Barrel with serial number

I believe I have already commented on the 98a? Perhaps on Gunboards or earlier here.. regarding the barrel, I doubt it is replaced but you do not show the barrel serial for some reason. Typically pre-war production follows less consistency on acceptance patterns, it is not necessarily a problem that the acceptance carried on the barrel deviates from the RR, though limited research has been done here (limited by a lack of samples to compare RR & barrel acceptance patterns, most people will not or do not show the barrel coding on the 98a, probably because the hassle of disassembling the stock properly); however the fireproof looks right for a Spandau and such an early lot is also expected for such an early rifle. However if the serialing fonts are different then this could be a clue that the barrel has been replaced, but doubtful Danzig would have done so, higher ordnance staffs would typically add an acceptance on the RR for a re-placed barrel and the FP on the barrel is not Danzig in style, - most of which are fatter and more elaborate than other arsenals, kind of like a fat turkey.

Any evaluation requires good pictures of all the matching components, specifically the acceptance and serialing, you tried here, but left out the barrel serial. The rest of the rifle guessing w/o pictures.

Jon Speed already published the highlights from the archives, appropriately "Mauser Archives", sold by Collector Grade, it covers a lot of ground and not specifically on military production (which is all that interests me). Because of Jon Speed's work and collaboration with researchers, we know the broad strokes of Mauser's production, - Mauser is not the problem, the others are the mystery, especially the other arsenals, all of which are elusive to find information on. Mostly we go by trends on the rest, but Mauser and to a lesser extent DWM we have a rather good grasp of what they made and what they manufactured.



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Knew had photo of area with serial number of barrel it's just the top piece of stock was still in place.:facepalm: Added additional photos of bolt and other pieces.

http://www.k98kforum.com/album.php?albumid=141

Thank you Again
 
I would say that barrel is original to the manufacture; the other components (bolt serial/bands mods) and the serial on the stock, below the receiver serial, are signs of Spanish use. I suspect this rifle served in Spain during and after their Civil War.

Personally, I would consider restoring it to German configuration, dump the stock and hardware, find suitable German components and make it look more "German", you have the core elements of a Kar.98a and the maker is rare enough to justify the effort.

There will be fit issues to replace a stock, I have never found a perfect match swapping stocks on a 98a, but with some luck you can find a stock with only slight alterations needed (98a stock sets are notoriously difficult to swap, the fit is tight and they seem to fit/shrink to the b/r over time, so replacement stocks need a little adjustment); however if experiences teaches us anything, it is that there is some "Spanish rework" collector that would be horrified at the thought of defiling such a bastardization, - much like the "garbage rc" collectors shriek when someone tries to "Germanize" an rc, - oh, the horror over such sacrilege...
 

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