DaveDavis
Senior Member
http://ww2weaponsforum.com/showthread.php?17380-Unusual-Markings&p=65666#post65666
I know Gew98M's are not the "Rock Stars" of collecting
I know Gew98M's are not the "Rock Stars" of collecting
I Don't Know If This Is of Interest / Unusual Markings
- Thread starter DaveDavis
- Start date
Warrior1354
ax - hole
Thats actually a pretty interesting rifle Dave. The receiver is really neat a 1918 dated Schilling Suhl 1918 but it wasn't accepted till 1928? But thats the strange part vast amounts of rifles were destroyed in the 20s. Interwar period is not my specially but it is a very interesting period for these rifles. Paul would like too see this rifle has some interesting features.
Is it import marked at all? Unit stamps by chance?
Is it import marked at all? Unit stamps by chance?
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Warrior1354
ax - hole
Sorry about that from your pictures on the WW2 weapons forum it looked like the number 22. Well from I can tell rifle got itself a new barrel and went through a depot in the late 20s early 30s. I'll be honest these Gew98m rifles can be quite the sleeper not too mention bargains in the collecting field. Any history on it Dave?
The barrel being cut for sight hood is also interesting sounds like this rifle went back through a depot again in the 40s.
The barrel being cut for sight hood is also interesting sounds like this rifle went back through a depot again in the 40s.
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Warrior1354
ax - hole
Any markings on the buttplate?
DaveDavis
Senior Member
Just the serial number
Warrior1354
ax - hole
Alright I have seen some with all types of different stamps on the buttplate.
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
Agreed. Rebarrel? I see the 0/2 on the shank but I can't see the full code or make out the acceptance. Definitely would explain the sight hood.
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HZa Zeithan - Saxony
Your rifle is a Ted Nugent to me!
It is a dying shame the rifle is mismatched though, not because it takes away from what it is, but because the loss of so much we could have learned from a matching-original rifle...
This rifle is one of the last rifles built by HZa Zeithain, an ordnance depot active 1924-1928, in Saxony, north of Dresden, - like so many activities of the new Reichsheer, it was based around secrecy and typically old facilities that were less "visible" hosted illegal activities. Zeithain was once an old Imperial training grounds, like Döberitz and Zossen near Berlin these old facilities harbored illegal army operations, Seeckt was a master at working around both his own government (socialist usually, though fairly tolerant SPD politicians that gave Seeckt a long leash and "moderate" defense secretaries to operate under - The Reichswehr was the only stabilizing institution in the country 1918-1923 and held it altogether) and the IAMCC...
Shortly after the calamity of 1918-1923, where the German Army barely survived, - the period has almost no precedent prior to 1945, a society in free fall, Seeckt began to revitalize the German Army, prior to 1924 no rifles were made and probably few ordnance shops even existed outside of perhaps the Wehrkreis (each infantry division had one, something along the lines of Imperial Army Korps districts, though fewer, Germany only had 7 infantry divisions and 3 cavalry) and the two group HQ at Berlin (Spandau) and Kassel (We know they existed in both, HZa Spandau is well known, and so was Kassel/Cassel)
The operation at Zeithain was probably located here because it was out of the way and was an old military base; such facilities were strictly illegal and everyone knew it. The dates of operation make perfect sense, something like this was impossible before 1924, and very few rifles are 1924 dated, none have been discovered 1925 dated, most 1926-1927 dated, which fall into the period of Lorcarno (Treaty negotiated in Switzerland) which led to a normalization of relations between Germany, France and England. Germany would join the League and the IAMCC would leave by January 1927 (neutered far earlier).. the dates correspond well to this event:
1. 1924 the German Army is for the first time stable and confident in its position, much of the divisions within the Army are resolved, the economy is stabilized, relations with France still tense, but at least they are for the first time stable. Seeckt above all desires his Army independence and a state within the state, - actually his Army above politics and representative of the nation. Expanding operations at Cassel (name change 1926), Spandau and a new covert facility at the training grounds at Zeitain to build rifles from left over receivers from WWI (which there are many hidden)
2. Stresemann (the foreign secretary, rival of Seeckt and former chancellor- they hated one another) in 1925 negotiates with England and France in Switzerland to normalize relations, set western borders, Germany joins the league, and the IAMCC to exit Germany. To achieve this Seeckt ordered to refrain from actions that may disrupt negotiations... Zeithain stops making rifles, after treaty signed (December 1925 in London) resumes, returns with gusto in 1926-1927, lingers on into 1928, stops due to irrelevancy. It is known that many German ordnance shops existed in 1931, probably at each Wehrkeis HQ (seven at least) and the two group ordnance shops already mentioned (which were active throughout 1924-1933, plenty of rifles as evidence). The IAMCC and all official oversight was gone by 1927, Simson was online and Spandau could handle most rifle related business.
3. Seeckt is gone, Heye his successor in 1927 stated the German Army possessed 350,000 illegal rifles in clandestine depots. The problem was not a shortage of rifles, but one of a shortage of ammunition.
So, the rifle is very interesting to me, it is not only a rather rare variation, a short lived variation, it covers a period of history almost forgotten in history books, - most books focus, rightly, upon the 1931-1933 period, which is fairly devoid of rifle developments (only the experiments the German Army conducted on shortening the 98b to 98k, which collapsed due to financial difficulties)
Perhaps most interesting about your rifle is the stock, I have seen this stock before, but no other like it.I had imagined its marking to an earlier period, the period prior to 1924 when all the chaos reigned, a medley of organizations and gangsters roaming Germany, communist led revolts, Freikorps, short lived police organizations, militias of every stripe, even Army backed organizations, para-military Verbände which were militia-Freikorp raised on the frontiers, especially in the east facing the Poles... the dogs of the French! But, that is unlikely that I think about it more... more likely some obscure Reichswehr organization or property marking after 1927. Whatever it is the stock is the neatest thing I have seen in a long time.
Your rifle is a Ted Nugent to me!
It is a dying shame the rifle is mismatched though, not because it takes away from what it is, but because the loss of so much we could have learned from a matching-original rifle...
This rifle is one of the last rifles built by HZa Zeithain, an ordnance depot active 1924-1928, in Saxony, north of Dresden, - like so many activities of the new Reichsheer, it was based around secrecy and typically old facilities that were less "visible" hosted illegal activities. Zeithain was once an old Imperial training grounds, like Döberitz and Zossen near Berlin these old facilities harbored illegal army operations, Seeckt was a master at working around both his own government (socialist usually, though fairly tolerant SPD politicians that gave Seeckt a long leash and "moderate" defense secretaries to operate under - The Reichswehr was the only stabilizing institution in the country 1918-1923 and held it altogether) and the IAMCC...
Shortly after the calamity of 1918-1923, where the German Army barely survived, - the period has almost no precedent prior to 1945, a society in free fall, Seeckt began to revitalize the German Army, prior to 1924 no rifles were made and probably few ordnance shops even existed outside of perhaps the Wehrkreis (each infantry division had one, something along the lines of Imperial Army Korps districts, though fewer, Germany only had 7 infantry divisions and 3 cavalry) and the two group HQ at Berlin (Spandau) and Kassel (We know they existed in both, HZa Spandau is well known, and so was Kassel/Cassel)
The operation at Zeithain was probably located here because it was out of the way and was an old military base; such facilities were strictly illegal and everyone knew it. The dates of operation make perfect sense, something like this was impossible before 1924, and very few rifles are 1924 dated, none have been discovered 1925 dated, most 1926-1927 dated, which fall into the period of Lorcarno (Treaty negotiated in Switzerland) which led to a normalization of relations between Germany, France and England. Germany would join the League and the IAMCC would leave by January 1927 (neutered far earlier).. the dates correspond well to this event:
1. 1924 the German Army is for the first time stable and confident in its position, much of the divisions within the Army are resolved, the economy is stabilized, relations with France still tense, but at least they are for the first time stable. Seeckt above all desires his Army independence and a state within the state, - actually his Army above politics and representative of the nation. Expanding operations at Cassel (name change 1926), Spandau and a new covert facility at the training grounds at Zeitain to build rifles from left over receivers from WWI (which there are many hidden)
2. Stresemann (the foreign secretary, rival of Seeckt and former chancellor- they hated one another) in 1925 negotiates with England and France in Switzerland to normalize relations, set western borders, Germany joins the league, and the IAMCC to exit Germany. To achieve this Seeckt ordered to refrain from actions that may disrupt negotiations... Zeithain stops making rifles, after treaty signed (December 1925 in London) resumes, returns with gusto in 1926-1927, lingers on into 1928, stops due to irrelevancy. It is known that many German ordnance shops existed in 1931, probably at each Wehrkeis HQ (seven at least) and the two group ordnance shops already mentioned (which were active throughout 1924-1933, plenty of rifles as evidence). The IAMCC and all official oversight was gone by 1927, Simson was online and Spandau could handle most rifle related business.
3. Seeckt is gone, Heye his successor in 1927 stated the German Army possessed 350,000 illegal rifles in clandestine depots. The problem was not a shortage of rifles, but one of a shortage of ammunition.
So, the rifle is very interesting to me, it is not only a rather rare variation, a short lived variation, it covers a period of history almost forgotten in history books, - most books focus, rightly, upon the 1931-1933 period, which is fairly devoid of rifle developments (only the experiments the German Army conducted on shortening the 98b to 98k, which collapsed due to financial difficulties)
Perhaps most interesting about your rifle is the stock, I have seen this stock before, but no other like it.I had imagined its marking to an earlier period, the period prior to 1924 when all the chaos reigned, a medley of organizations and gangsters roaming Germany, communist led revolts, Freikorps, short lived police organizations, militias of every stripe, even Army backed organizations, para-military Verbände which were militia-Freikorp raised on the frontiers, especially in the east facing the Poles... the dogs of the French! But, that is unlikely that I think about it more... more likely some obscure Reichswehr organization or property marking after 1927. Whatever it is the stock is the neatest thing I have seen in a long time.
Yes, a re-barrel, probably pre-1934 JPS, but hard to say. I can't see the acceptance well enough. Or whether this is the full barrel code. Pre-1934 will not be dated.
Damn shame too, this is really just a receiver as far as Zeithain goes, still damn neat, but I hate it when a rifle we could learn so much from is reworked, but that is the nature of interwar era rifles. Not only is there a lack of books, authors and research on the period (in English), the rifles are typically rework, mismatched, or worse (postwar used junk)
Damn shame too, this is really just a receiver as far as Zeithain goes, still damn neat, but I hate it when a rifle we could learn so much from is reworked, but that is the nature of interwar era rifles. Not only is there a lack of books, authors and research on the period (in English), the rifles are typically rework, mismatched, or worse (postwar used junk)
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pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
Amazing collection Dave! And I like the rifle that is the subject of this thread, very interesting markings, love that S/42 K on the rear sight assembly, and the receiver markings rock.
I find the variety of oddball markings/assemblers/parts in many ways so much more interesting than the run of the mill 98k, and while not as popular as the typical 98k, they have been very scarce, at least in my hunting...
Thanks for posting it, and Paul, thanks for your, as always, stellar history lesson!
I find the variety of oddball markings/assemblers/parts in many ways so much more interesting than the run of the mill 98k, and while not as popular as the typical 98k, they have been very scarce, at least in my hunting...
Thanks for posting it, and Paul, thanks for your, as always, stellar history lesson!
runner
Senior Member
Fantastically interesting rifle, Loewe, amazing writeup. Our Kids would get a better education on international history reading your posts than they do in out public schools.
Its well known you have an extraordinary collection Dave, - many rifles that have few rivals, like the Simson/1924! The S-receiver (top) is a type I, the first variation after dating stopped, they are incredibly difficult to find.... Craig Brown owned a fine example, it went through Amoskeag (for a ridiculously cheap $1000) and hasn't resurfaced so far as I have noticed. He and I competed for it on Gun Broker a decade ago, back when i was still buying, - I didn't find out he won it until much later.
An interwar rifle collection is something difficult to achieve, especially if you are picky (original-matching), you could spend a lifetime building a collection and probably never come close to finishing a comprehensive representation. If rarity is your interest or goal, it can only be found in pre-1898 or 1919-1933, nothing in the National Socialist era is rare, or very little anyway, and Imperial (Modell98) can be found if you have enough money and patience, - but patience and money alone isn't enough for interwar, a great deal was destroyed, either by rework or war, or the carnage of "collectors" over the last seven decades...
An interwar rifle collection is something difficult to achieve, especially if you are picky (original-matching), you could spend a lifetime building a collection and probably never come close to finishing a comprehensive representation. If rarity is your interest or goal, it can only be found in pre-1898 or 1919-1933, nothing in the National Socialist era is rare, or very little anyway, and Imperial (Modell98) can be found if you have enough money and patience, - but patience and money alone isn't enough for interwar, a great deal was destroyed, either by rework or war, or the carnage of "collectors" over the last seven decades...
Warrior1354
ax - hole
Indeed Dave you do have an extraordinary collection. And Paul once again it always amazes me how much information you post it really is extraordinary. And I agree with you interwar period is such an interesting time frame. The amount of turmoil and chaos that Germany was in during that time frame makes it hard to believe the country even survived. I still think the biggest problems Germany was suffering in that time was lack of work, going hungry, and the rise of communism. Of course when the great Depression happened that didn't help the country either.
Thanks Frank, to be honest I have been reading everything I can find on the period over the last two years, its been taking up most of my reading time, which is already a considerable part of my free time.
I have actually been working on a couple articles in this period, the EW (Einwohnerwehr), most well known in Bavaria, but it was German wide organization, strong elements in the east because of Poland (in one form or another these militias evolved and lingered in the east for over a decade, Wolfgang discovered a remarkable picture from 1933 of such a militiaman, much of the hidden rifles were in the east). The HZa Zeithain is something I have been working on for years; and lately I have thought of working up a more comprehensive outline of rifle ordnance work between the wars, which incorporates Zeithain, Kassel, Spandau and RM ordnance shops (which were totally independent from the Reichsheer - Army and Navy were totally separated with different command structures, and ironically, by the mid-1920's were more radically right than the Reichsheer, which was more conservative, or at least the leadership was more Monarchical/Aristocratic, though less "Prussian" than one might imagine, - Groener and Reinhardt were Würts...)
I have actually been working on a couple articles in this period, the EW (Einwohnerwehr), most well known in Bavaria, but it was German wide organization, strong elements in the east because of Poland (in one form or another these militias evolved and lingered in the east for over a decade, Wolfgang discovered a remarkable picture from 1933 of such a militiaman, much of the hidden rifles were in the east). The HZa Zeithain is something I have been working on for years; and lately I have thought of working up a more comprehensive outline of rifle ordnance work between the wars, which incorporates Zeithain, Kassel, Spandau and RM ordnance shops (which were totally independent from the Reichsheer - Army and Navy were totally separated with different command structures, and ironically, by the mid-1920's were more radically right than the Reichsheer, which was more conservative, or at least the leadership was more Monarchical/Aristocratic, though less "Prussian" than one might imagine, - Groener and Reinhardt were Würts...)
Although I have the greatest possible disdain for all things socialist, - fascism and communism in particular - it is difficult to imagine Germany holding together had it not been for the SPD and its moderating influences holding the far left at bay while facing an incredibly hostile France and Belgium, - and England was hardly much better... on top of this is the very real possibility of seceding states, - Bavaria is the one that gets most attention, there were several instances they could have gone on their own, and very well did in 1923 (thanks to Hitler it failed, the egotist overplayed his hand as usual, - though modern "historians" overplay his role, Hitler was a minor player, a footnote, his only real role was collapsing any chance of Bavaria seceding or the 7th Infantry Division leading a revolt to topple the Berlin government...). Other states were also vulnerable to secession, there were strong far left revolts in 1923 in Thurgeria and Saxony, as well in western Germany...
Many do not realize how strong socialism was in Germany after WWI, the right was very weak, it never really recovered, the German Nationalist (Monarchists, Aristocrats, the wealthy, conservatives) barely had any political power, it was like 1925 before they had their first good election which gave them some influence in government, and it didn't last long.. their strength came from ties to the Reichswehr and later Hindenburg when he became President.
Personally I think the world and especially Germany would have been better off breaking up, breaking into several states or confederations, - 1866 and 1870 was a mistake, Bavaria and Prussia never got along especially well, southern Germany (Württemberg, Baden and Bavaria) would have been better off in a confederation, closer to Austria, - Saxony was never "buddies" with Prussia (though in 1923 they no longer had a common border with Austria, their traditional ally); though I guess everything is solved by time, even the lingering disparity since 1990 (disparity between east and west Germany) has seemingly disappeared, the Germans seem more "uniform" or united than ever before in their history. (at least for now, their immigration policy is cultural suicide imo, "diversity" is not a strength, its a weakness, in a stable state divisions create conflicts, as these ethnic groups grow in number they will grow in political and economic influence, if assimilation doesn't occur at a adequate pace conflicts will increase)
Many do not realize how strong socialism was in Germany after WWI, the right was very weak, it never really recovered, the German Nationalist (Monarchists, Aristocrats, the wealthy, conservatives) barely had any political power, it was like 1925 before they had their first good election which gave them some influence in government, and it didn't last long.. their strength came from ties to the Reichswehr and later Hindenburg when he became President.
Personally I think the world and especially Germany would have been better off breaking up, breaking into several states or confederations, - 1866 and 1870 was a mistake, Bavaria and Prussia never got along especially well, southern Germany (Württemberg, Baden and Bavaria) would have been better off in a confederation, closer to Austria, - Saxony was never "buddies" with Prussia (though in 1923 they no longer had a common border with Austria, their traditional ally); though I guess everything is solved by time, even the lingering disparity since 1990 (disparity between east and west Germany) has seemingly disappeared, the Germans seem more "uniform" or united than ever before in their history. (at least for now, their immigration policy is cultural suicide imo, "diversity" is not a strength, its a weakness, in a stable state divisions create conflicts, as these ethnic groups grow in number they will grow in political and economic influence, if assimilation doesn't occur at a adequate pace conflicts will increase)
Yes, I think Mark Wieringa once wrote that interwar Gewehr98's are (and have always been) undervalued due to a limited market, there simply wasn't a war going on and very few study the subject and even less the rifles. This despite the fact 1918-1935 is probably the most dynamic period in modern German history, - the entire character of the nation changed and it was primarily a process of German design, not like the situation after 1945 where the western allies and their thug associate (the state equally responsible for starting and perpetuating WWII, not to mention mass murdered with no rival outside of Red China...) "1984"d (Orwell) a conquered Germany... what problems Germany has today are largely a concoction of the occupying allies, largely based around "collective guilt" and prejudice, if not envy...
Amazingly, to me anyway, they are still the most under appreciated rifles in our hobby, - some of that is due to lack of examples worth collecting. It is damn difficult to find a really nice interwar rifle, almost all had some work done to them in the 1930's, even the Kar.98b's, but what amazes me is that when a nice rifle comes up for sale, it typically draws little attention and soft sale prices. Unfortunately any collection of interwar rifles will be largely a collection of mismatchers, a great many little more than barreled receivers.
Amazingly, to me anyway, they are still the most under appreciated rifles in our hobby, - some of that is due to lack of examples worth collecting. It is damn difficult to find a really nice interwar rifle, almost all had some work done to them in the 1930's, even the Kar.98b's, but what amazes me is that when a nice rifle comes up for sale, it typically draws little attention and soft sale prices. Unfortunately any collection of interwar rifles will be largely a collection of mismatchers, a great many little more than barreled receivers.
