Training rifle USA ww2

Your are Right sir

And I must retract my remark that there are photos in the trainer book showing the services using them. None of the few we had made the final cut after a quick review.

I do not dispute that the German military's use of them was insignificant. Only that it did occur.

Nor was the U.S. Military's use of the 1922 or other .22 trainer significant in the actual qualification training.

Page 151 of "Das System Adalbert" by Wacker shows 2 photos of SS training, one drilling with DSM other shooting instruction with KKW.

Page 287 of "Backbone of the Wehrmacht" by Law bottom page, fellow does not look to be an HJ or SA to me? Rifle is a KKW. Perhaps he is not Wehrmacht?

Chapter 4 of "Alternate Measures" by Weaver documents pressed into service (along with anything that would shoot) for the Volksturm.

So much for the photographic evidence pending finding those few jpgs not included in the trainer book.

As for documented use of the KKW:

7 October 1943, 10th issue of the "Allgemeine Heeresmitteilungen" listed equipment to be used in the sharpshooter courses as:

10 Karabiner 98k mit ZF
7 KK-gewehr mit ZF

Miniscule fer sure.

All your points are well made.

WaA's on trainers

oldcorps said:

They were popularly used in inter and intra-unit marksmanship competitions both before and during the war. I guess that was a form of training. Now, how common are Waffen Amts on DSM and KKW rifles?

Click to expand...

The only trainers I have observed that have legimate waffen amts are the Gustloff KKW ZF trainers and a few of the normal Gustloff KKW completed at Buchenwald (tail end production)

And that is dang few.

Thank you and those are rare.

A fact which I find interesting, tho it has nothing to do with the discussion, is that the 1922 was the rifle used to develop the .22 Hornet cartridge. That is why to-day the Hornet calls for a .223 bore while must other .22's were changed to .224. I believe the above mentioned Mr. Woodworth was part of this 'experiment. Most have been a nice job working at S.A., lots of play time?

Hallo

"Page 151 of "Das System Adalbert" by Wacker shows 2 photos of SS training, one drilling with DSM other shooting instruction with KKW."


.... „dsm“ do not clearly say that the soldiers trained with them, they only show soldiers with dsm. It could be possible that they’ve visited their sons at the hj and took pictures with the weapon there


you can not separate the time military and normal life, everything was coordinated.
The children in the HJ youth and all life was all predetermined.
I know old men Veterans, we talked a lot.
one said to me "he had no childhood and no youth"
That's really true at 17-18 years he was a soldier of the Waffen SS, Hohenstaufen

View attachment 162441







In the time in the war was certainly not trained in military with the DSM!
These were weapons for HJ and before the war for the SA.
The weapons were also built uniformly to make the weapons manufacturers assignments ,
because after the 1st WW the Versailler contract harmed the economy

I reckon so...

alterpapa said:

Hallo

"Page 151 of "Das System Adalbert" by Wacker shows 2 photos of SS training, one drilling with DSM other shooting instruction with KKW."


.... „dsm“ do not clearly say that the soldiers trained with them, they only show soldiers with dsm. It could be possible that they’ve visited their sons at the hj and took pictures with the weapon there


you can not separate the time military and normal life, everything was coordinated.
The children in the HJ youth and all life was all predetermined.
I know old men Veterans, we talked a lot.
one said to me "he had no childhood and no youth"
That's really true at 17-18 years he was a soldier of the Waffen SS, Hohenstaufen

View attachment 162441







In the time in the war was certainly not trained in military with the DSM!
These were weapons for HJ and before the war for the SA.
The weapons were also built uniformly to make the weapons manufacturers assignments ,
because after the 1st WW the Versailler contract harmed the economy

Click to expand...

So, in your opinion, were the primary users, or intended purpose of the guns the pre-military training of the Hitler Youth?

The German Army was organized as a wave system, ranging from older reservists to men currently on active duty and their level of NS indoctrination ranged accordingly. Those from the classes of 1924 - 1929 seem to have been influenced the most.

Going Off TOPIC BUT OK

As the OP is along with us.

I would be curious to know how many German Males who turned 18 between 1938 and 1945 survived to 1946.

Or taking into account those that died in Russian Gulags lets say 1956.

Has anybody, ever seen any statistics relative to that?

All that was known from 1948 or 9 when the first men were released by the Soviets came from their debriefings and from these the Red Cross and Suchdienst was able to augment some files. Those released during the early1950's appeared better nourished and relatively healthy probably because the condition of those repatriated earlier were a propaganda liability for the Russians. As I recall the reds released no prisoner personnel lists but may have later. They however did list those convicted of war crimes, some of whom were still returning during the 1960's. It is known that they liberated hundreds of American POW's from the camps they overran but these were never released.

mauser22 said:

So, in your opinion, were the primary users, or intended purpose of the guns the pre-military training of the Hitler Youth?

Click to expand...

simply YES
From 1933 on it was only possible to train with weapons at the HJ or from party organized competitions, a civil shooting as a form of sport was not possible anymore. Before 1933 you were able to shoot as a sport in 'shooting clubs' or in 'veteran clubs', a big part of the veteran clubs joined the SA.


Here's text in german, it's about collecting weapons (I wrote it). It's very difficult to collect weapons in Germany, so if you want to collect them you have to write an essay, about the weapons you want to collect, to be allowed to collect the weapons.
This is just just a tiny little part of it...


Die Patrone 22lr wurde 1887 entwickelt und wurde rasch als preiswerte Munition verbreitet.
Bevor die Patrone 22lr als Standartpatrone für Ausbildung und Training im vormilitärischen-militärischen und behördlichen Bereich anzusehen war,
gab es andere Kaliber die auch sehr verbreitet waren.
In Deutschland war es das Wehrmannschießen, das im Kaliber Deutsche Schützenpatrone 8,15x46R durchgeführt wurde,
die später von der 22lr verdrängt wurde.
View attachment 162473

So genannte Knaben oder Kadettengewehre wurden bis zum ersten Weltkrieg im Kaliber 6mm Flobbert und auch schon in 22.lr angeboten und in Deutschland gern von Kriegerbundvereinigungen genutzt.

Auch Weltweit wurden Ausbildungswaffen für Kadetten in 22lr zur militärischen Ausbildung hergestellt um den Jugendlichen in Militärakademien/Offiziersschulen das schießen beizubringen.
Die Patrone 22lr war sehr weit verbreitet und für Ausbildungs- und Trainingszwecke ideal.




Nach dem ersten Weltkrieg, wurde es durch den Versailler Vertrag, deutschen Herstellern untersagt Kriegswaffen herzustellen.
Die Wehrmanngewehre durften weiter hergestellt werden oder Militärwaffen wurden zu Wehrmanngewehren umgebaut.
Vereinzelt wurden ehemalige Kriegswaffen auch in 22lr umgebaut, sehr seltene Stücke sind so genannte Zielgewehre in Kaliber 4mm die wie der Name es schon sagt zum üben das Zielens über Kimme und Korn genutzt wurden .

In den zwanziger Jahren wurde das schießen von ehemaligen Militärangehörigen stark gefördert, viele Soldaten wollten ihre Wehrhaftigkeit zum Ausdruck bringen .
Das Wehrmannschießen war auch zu der Zeit eine teure Angelegenheit und nicht alle
Schießstände konnten für diese Waffen genutzt werden.

In dieser Zeit wurden sehr viele Schützenvereine gegründet und Schießstände errichtet die für die 22lr ausgelegt waren.
Kriegerverbände und Reservistenvereine konnten so auch das militärische schießen weiter üben.



Vielen Politischen Kreisen war es auch in den zwanziger Jahren wichtig die "Wehrlosigkeit" des deutschen Volkes zu überwinden, durch den Wegfall der allgemeinen Wehrpflicht nach dem 1.Weltkrieg sollte das Schießen auch eine vormilitärische Schießausbildung vermitteln.
Paramilitärische Truppen und die SA trainierten mit diesen Kleinkaliber Waffen.




Ab 1933 griffen auch die damaligen Machthabern in diese Entwicklung ein,
das weit verbreitete sportliche Schießen sollte durch das militärisch orientierte Schießen abgelöst werden.

Die bis dahin eingesetzten Scheibenbüchsen verloren schnell an Bedeutung ,

gezielt wurden dadurch KK Wehrmannbüchsen und Wehrmann Zimmerstutzen in 4mm für den Innenbereich und die kurzen Schießstände verbreitet.

Ab 1934 wurde zur Unterstützung der deutschen Waffenindustrie und zur noch größeren Verbreitung des Wehrsports das "Deutsche Sportmodell "DSM 34 eingeführt.
Es war eine einheitliche militärische Trainingswaffe die von verschiedenen Herstellern produziert wurde und optisch stark dem 98K ähnelte.

Durch das DSM wurden die Scheibenbüchsen und die Wehrmanngewehre schnell ersetzt auf den deutschen Schießständen.
Inzwischen war es nur noch möglich das schießen im Rahmen vormilitärischer Übungen durchzuführen.

Das deutsche Sportmodell wurde in der HJ einheitlich als Wehrsportwaffe eingesetzt.

Thank so very much for that!

A point much debated here in the US by many.

It has long been my opinion as well.