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Thread: 1919 J.P. Sauer

  1. #1
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    Default 1919 J.P. Sauer

    I posted a pic of my 1919 J.P. Sauer on a Facebook page and someone requested I drop it on here for discussion. I was informed that this may be the first 1919 J.P. Sauer to surface.
    23435142_1909195329097490_1043174544444056851_n.jpg

    If there's interest I'll take more detailed pics for research purposes.

    Cheers

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    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    Yes, it is true that this is the only "known" JPS/19, though there are CGH/19 and VCS/19's known. Of course it is also possible others have seen a JPS/19 and have not made note of it, but as far as I know this is the first encountered.

    This rifle should not have a suffix, typically these 1919 dated rifles (Oberspree also made them) were made in very small numbers, none close to a roll over. Regarding these Suhl consortium 1919's, none seem to be anywhere near original matching, so very little is known about them. Most are little more than barreled receivers.

    Try and take pictures of the top-right-left receiver and barrel markings. These things are most likely to define what these are. - Obviously by 1919 Germany was a republic and utter chaos and revolution was in the air, so it would be interesting to see something original to this period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nulle100 View Post
    I posted a pic of my 1919 J.P. Sauer on a Facebook page and someone requested I drop it on here for discussion. I was informed that this may be the first 1919 J.P. Sauer to surface.
    23435142_1909195329097490_1043174544444056851_n.jpg

    If there's interest I'll take more detailed pics for research purposes.

    Cheers

  3. #3
    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    This is important enough to move this to interwar forum.

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    ax - hole Warrior1354's Avatar
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    Wow what an incredible find. Please post more pictures.
    "Don't use your musket if you can kill 'em with your hatchet"

    Major Robert Rogers 1757 Founder of the U.S Army Rangers

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    Senior Member mauser1908's Avatar
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    Thank you for posting this one! All would love to see additional photos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loewe View Post
    Yes, it is true that this is the only "known" JPS/19, though there are CGH/19 and VCS/19's known. Of course it is also possible others have seen a JPS/19 and have not made note of it, but as far as I know this is the first encountered.

    This rifle should not have a suffix, typically these 1919 dated rifles (Oberspree also made them) were made in very small numbers, none close to a roll over. Regarding these Suhl consortium 1919's, none seem to be anywhere near original matching, so very little is known about them. Most are little more than barreled receivers.

    Try and take pictures of the top-right-left receiver and barrel markings. These things are most likely to define what these are. - Obviously by 1919 Germany was a republic and utter chaos and revolution was in the air, so it would be interesting to see something original to this period.
    I'll try and take pics in outdoors daylight this weekend, better light obviously. Do you need barrel codes, proofs, etc. from the underside?

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    RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual heavy_mech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loewe View Post
    ..Obviously by 1919 Germany was a republic and utter chaos and revolution was in the air, so it would be interesting to see something original to this period.
    Wow. I've never seen a 1919. I wonder the chances this was finished post armistice? I can see a likely scenario where very limited production continued (amid the chaos?) since no treaty would be ratified for quite some time. Love to see more photos.
    "Wen Tausend einen Mann erschlagen, das ist nicht Ruhm, das ist nicht Ehre, denn beinsen wird's in späteren tagen gesiegt hat doch das Deutsch Heer. Podest nicht die Paten der Soldaten doner die da Sterben sollen, soll man geben was sie wollen, sahs sie Herzen, sahs sie Küssen, den sie wissen nicht wann sie sterben müssen"

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    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    The barrel markings would be extremely important if original to manufacture. Or if it was done prior to 1924-26. Less importance if 1927-1933, and no importance if post 1933. The rearsight would also be very important, if matching.

    That is the thing, only parts that have the receiver serial really matter, - to a study of the rifle and placing it in context of a period or event. That it is property marked means it was delivered to the German Army prior to Spa (July 1920), that is an important factor for research. Whatever else can be said, this rifle was delivered to the German military sometime between 1919-1920, the other markings could tell us more, though I hope it is more original to 1919 than 1939...

    Try to get the barrel markings, underneath is where most marking will be placed, though after 1925 or so, the FP will tend to move above the stock, a re-barrel might also show above the stock. Also the rear sight is important, it will almost certainly be upgraded, any rifle in government hands would have eventually gone through a depot, but let us hope it was a lazy day and the rifle passed through unmolested. Of course the stock is of paramount importance "IF" matching. A stock will tell more about a German rifle than any other component and that is generally true 1898-1945.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nulle100 View Post
    I'll try and take pics in outdoors daylight this weekend, better light obviously. Do you need barrel codes, proofs, etc. from the underside?

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavy_mech View Post
    Wow. I've never seen a 1919. I wonder the chances this was finished post armistice? I can see a likely scenario where very limited production continued (amid the chaos?) since no treaty would be ratified for quite some time. Love to see more photos.
    I highly recommend these books for background in Weimar era/Reichswehr rifles: https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Leg.../dp/0275902358
    https://www.amazon.com/Roots-Blitzkr...sap_bc?ie=UTF8

    They're not about the rifles, more about the evolution of the Reichswehr and gives you insight as to why that era's rifles are generally rare, beat up and have so many variations/modifications. James Corum's book has interesting info about the search for an autoloader dating from the early 1930s.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loewe View Post
    The barrel markings would be extremely important if original to manufacture. Or if it was done prior to 1924-26. Less importance if 1927-1933, and no importance if post 1933. The rearsight would also be very important, if matching.

    That is the thing, only parts that have the receiver serial really matter, - to a study of the rifle and placing it in context of a period or event. That it is property marked means it was delivered to the German Army prior to Spa (July 1920), that is an important factor for research. Whatever else can be said, this rifle was delivered to the German military sometime between 1919-1920, the other markings could tell us more, though I hope it is more original to 1919 than 1939...

    Try to get the barrel markings, underneath is where most marking will be placed, though after 1925 or so, the FP will tend to move above the stock, a re-barrel might also show above the stock. Also the rear sight is important, it will almost certainly be upgraded, any rifle in government hands would have eventually gone through a depot, but let us hope it was a lazy day and the rifle passed through unmolested. Of course the stock is of paramount importance "IF" matching. A stock will tell more about a German rifle than any other component and that is generally true 1898-1945.
    Its definitely been through at least one depot rebuild/mod at some point and has the upgraded rear sight. I'll dig into the rest this weekend. Its a vet bring back but not duffle cut, I picked it up as a small show in CT about 10 years ago in a private sale from someone who bought it from the vets estate. So at least we know it wasn't part of the Albanian horde from 1991-ish.

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