What is considered to be rare in 3R collecting?

German tank production versus the "Panzerkampfabzeichen in Silber" also an interesting subtopic for this thread.

Germany produced less then 50.000 tanks in WW2 and lets say on average a German tank had a crew of 4 men then we are talking about less then 200.000 men that served in a tank.
On top of that not all those that served in a tank earned a badge, despite these relatively low number of those that were eligible to obtain this badge, according to this Wiki page:
( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerkampfabzeichen ) only +/- 22.000 were ever awarded!, you find them with the dozens on militaria shows and with dealers, it isn't a rare badge to find at least if your not really concerned about originality.

A wiki page about German tank production:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II

The legend goes is a German half track was being sent to the Eastern Front from France that was completely packed with a bunch of these badges. It was absolutely full of them. It broke down on the way there and the crew of the half-track were able to park it in an Old Barn. It was parked in this Barn for 70 years until old Walther found it!

Micro Jo said:

Indeed, even "Collector`s Groups" existed. here are two documents I have for the "Sammeln am Feierabend- Historische Dokumente" KDF Group, aquiring 1936 Olympic medals and badges in 1941! There were others too. And there are of course plenty of mentions of people collecting, and even images of collections in the UM and later DuZ papers.
This is one of the reasons why they clamped down on the shops to only sell decorations to people who presented the appropriate paperwork.
But in the beginning you can believe that many people could and did "aquire" decorations and items they were not entitled to, or allowed to get.
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Thank you very much for sharing these interesting documents. I have to search, in one German period magazine was pictured a Hitler Youth member with his collection, Knight's Cross autograph and some awards like Iron Cross, War Merit Cross, etc. in a wooden box.

Micro Jo said:

Don`t forget that every kind of dagger was forbidden to be produced in early 1943. Only fighting knives/bayo`s etc were allowed. (No more SS daggers, no more SA, no more HJ knives and so on, nothing. And this law was never lifted.
Parts would have been around I guess, but the "edged weapon production" in Germany came to a more or less full stop, in early 1943.
Surely any large quantities of parts (that were no longer needed and could not be sold obviously) would have been recycled during the last two years. Everything was for these "Metal collections" even flag pole tops and houshold scrap metals... I can`t see how any maker could afford to just have huge quantities of parts laying around that he could not sell, not use, when the country was going tits up fast, and everything was rationed and being collected to be recycled.

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The secret books with output numbers from January 10, 1945, edited in the office Laurenz, for Reich Minister Speer contains as example these output numbers:

Officer Dress Daggers
January 1944 - Heer 200 / Luftwaffe 100 / Marine 2,000
February 1944 - Heer 300 / Luftwaffe 265 / Marine 1,300
March 1944 - Heer 450 / Luftwaffe 490 / Marine 400
April 1944 - Heer 350 / Luftwaffe 300 / Marine --
May 1944 - Heer 530 / Luftwaffe 150 / Marine 660
June 1944 - Heer 270 / Luftwaffe 92 / Marine 200
July 1944 - Heer 926 / Luftwaffe 792 / Marine --
August 1944 - Heer -- / Luftwaffe -- / Marine 200
September 1944 - Heer 100 / Luftwaffe 240 / Marine 2,100
October 1944 - No records, recording documents through bombing raid at Solingen destroyed

From January 1944 until September 1944 at least 12,415 Officer Dress Dagger got assembled.

Regards,
Stephan

So there was dagger production into late 1944. This entire thread has been a very interesting read the entire time and I am looking forward to continuing posts. With the view count being over 1700 views I am not the only person who thinks this.

This is what I would refer to as a quality discussion, with period documentation and no shouting down and suppression of information detrimental to sales and rah rah.

So Micro, who is responsible for the mountains of fake badges out there being made? Are these cast and finished fakes? Some are rather good.

Yes it is both interesting (I also noticed the view count!) and an example of how discussions and debates should be. I recently saw one of Jo's examples on badge fakery. I don't remember the exact piece but he examined many factors such as metalurgy, mold finish, casting flash finish, etc. Don't quote me as to the exact specifics since I don't collect this stuff, but what he did show was quite specific and very scientific using lots of high magnification and side by side comparisons to know good examples. The differences he points out are obvious, even to a novice.

Interesting read so far. And lots of different points of view. Here are a series of photos I always saved as I was amazement of the fact a full case of PAB in sliber
could be found. Jo Im sure can attest to the originality of the items in the photos. I sure cant. The box construction does look correct. The boxes being the easiest to fake.

I still feel the amount made VS the amount needed goes against orders and production VS actually use/issue... Factories produced surplus to keep shortages or stoppages from happening. Speculation of how many awards could or would be handed out were not known.

PeterU,
I am curious to know where you are getting your numbers for the EKII and EKI?

According to Wikipedia, 4.5 Million EKIIs were award in WWII. And 300,000 EKIs. Along with 7313 Knights Cross's. If these numbers are correct it would explain why Iron Crosses are not rare today. These are numbers are significantly larger then the numbers you gave.

Thanks!

mdarnell19 said:

PeterU,
I am curious to know where you are getting your numbers for the EKII and EKI?

According to Wikipedia, 4.5 Million EKIIs were award in WWII. And 300,000 EKIs. Along with 7313 Knights Cross's. If these numbers are correct it would explain why Iron Crosses are not rare today. These are numbers are significantly larger then the numbers you gave.

Thanks!

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I did some math myself using the averages of the EKII & I being awarded by standard Heer Infantry units; but I can live with the figures of Wiki to.
No problem, but you have to put these numbers to the 18.5 million men that served in the German army, that is less then 2% that got an EKI.
Lets take the German cross in gold, according to a Waf related page 24204 were awarded.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/german_cross/conditions_recipients.htm
I can live with that number and it is most likely correct; but if I surf the web this evening I can buy a dozen of GC's, which according to me doesn't make sense.
Until this week I firmly believed some manufacturers kept producing after the war, MJ proved me wrong, the only option left, besides believing in huge overstocks/hoards, it is that they must be reproduced on a large scale.

mauser99 said:

Interesting read so far. And lots of different points of view. Here are a series of photos I always saved as I was amazement of the fact a full case of PAB in sliber
could be found. Jo Im sure can attest to the originality of the items in the photos. I sure cant. The box construction does look correct. The boxes being the easiest to fake.

I still feel the amount made VS the amount needed goes against orders and production VS actually use/issue... Factories produced surplus to keep shortages or stoppages from happening. Speculation of how many awards could or would be handed out were not known.

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Nice picture!
Thanks for posting it.

What I find odd, is that this badge was less awarded then a the German Cross in Gold, a high bravery award but that badge can be bought everywhere, even the numbered badges aren't really rarely seen.

I started collecting in the early 1990's, right at the time that the big wave of medals and badges hit the collecting community.
In these pre-internet times I asked the question too: how can it be that there are so many medals and badges available, it wasn't like the German army gave these away like a piece of candy?
The answers I got were exactly those we still hear today such as:
- Every German soldier had at least three examples, one for everyday use, another for his walking out uniform and one at home.
- The medal and badge manufacturers had huge overstocks.
- Hoards.
So don't worry and buy them with confidence, especially if the come with a DN COA.
I didn't believe it back then and I still don't believe it today, the only logical explanation I though was possible was that the manufacturers kept producing shortly after war ended with their original templates and now that is pretty much debunked I'am even more pessimistic.
Of course not all medals and badges are fake but I'am also convinced that not only the cast copies are the only reproductions on the market.
And I wasn't alone with my critical ideas, several collectors I respected stayed away from most medals and badges even if they collected them.
Now the question remains what is the source of all these good quality medals and badges? Cottage industry in Eastern Europe? The same people that fake Rolex watches and Gucci bags in the far east?

Dealer operated and dealer funded "discussion forums" are IMHO infomercials. They appear to be like an open talk show, and there is some real discussion. However, their purpose is shilling and rah rah. Like an infomercial, the "audience" is controlled. I think the complete lack of ID of the facilities and people involved in knocking off these badges and awards off tells us much. These can't be tiny little garage operations. All my opinions of course.

As for who is making these things, Micro would be the person to at least indicate the technology involved and who would possess it. I would think laser cutting and die making is involved, as well as casting and finishing.

KKW22cal said:

So there was dagger production into late 1944. This entire thread has been a very interesting read the entire time and I am looking forward to continuing posts. With the view count being over 1700 views I am not the only person who thinks this.

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Yes I think so they were assembled and distributed that late as his 8x57's figures show. What I think is metal was diverted for the war effort but what factories not bombed out or destroyed in and around Soligin still assembled them there were several small cottage makers that surely escaped ruin by allies. Not to discount those in the lots of retailer/distributors inventory. One of the dagger kings either Johnson or Whittey showed a Heer dagger with a Christmas time engraving on it indicating a gift at xmas 1944. timothy

8x57IS said:

From January 1944 until September 1944 at least 12,415 Officer Dress Dagger got assembled.

Regards,
Stephan

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Dress Daggers?
Not sure if the items you are referring to would be classed as Dienst-seitengewehre? If so, they they were allowed to be produced, along with Bayo`s.
If not, then they were forbidden by law to be produced after ealy 1943.
First mentioned in the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM, 20th of February 1943, and the DuZ in March. (image below - can be found on page 20 HERE.
This "Verbot" was never lifted. Right through to the end of the war, you will find "adverts" from edged weapon makers saying that "They will offer these kinds of daggers and knives again - as soon as the law is lifted and they are allowed to produce again." (Image of one such included below*)

*

And while I am busy uploading images, here are a few of "all what`s left" of the fake Volkssturm ID covers.
I think I had six or so sheets at one time.

KKW22cal said:

So there was dagger production into late 1944.

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No, (only limited production of some types) there was a law introduced in early 1943 that ended the prodution of almost all daggers. 250 kinds were forbidden. Only Bayo`s and Dienst-seitengewehre were allowed to be made. I don`t know too much about the many kinds of daggers (and their usage) to be able to tell you exactly what fell under the latter, maybe someone else can. I just know the rules and laws of that time, and can show you them. In the RZM papers they do specifically mention that were forbidded, like the Hitler Youth knife, for example. But when you have over 250 kinds of knives and daggers forbidden, the list must be very long indeed.

We only looked into this (law) as it related to the production of Hitler Youth knives, and because in the 1943 RZM paper, Hitler Youth knives are mentioned in b/w as being "banned" - no longer allowed to be produced - that was about as far as we (I) needed to go as far as looking into exactly what was still allowed to be made.
I guess a dagger enthusiast could look into this more, and maybe even establish some kind of list as to exactly what the 250 kinds were that were prohibited to be made after February 1943.

timothy said:

One of the dagger kings either Johnson or Whittey showed a Heer dagger with a Christmas time engraving on it indicating a gift at xmas 1944. timothy

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Johnson is also a seller of the fantasy BDM and DJ knives. As well as normal HJ knives with GREEN diamonds and so on...I would not believe a word that comes out of his mouth about daggers. But that`s just my opinion. He also had a fantasy DJ knife with Birthday etching on it for sale at one time. And he sold all the stuff as genuine. (Screen shots and descriptions are all saved on the Hj forum)
Of course even something that was not allowed to be made at that time, could still "be around" and given to someone at Xmas. There must have been old stock and surplus all over the Reich in places, even untill the last day. Just not fantasy stuff like Johnson and Wittmann and many others in their club sell.

Micro Jo said:

Johnson is also a seller of the fantasy BDM and DJ knives. As well as normal HJ knives with GREEN diamonds and so on...I would not believe a word that comes out of his mouth about daggers. But that`s just my opinion. He also had a fantasy DJ knife with Birthday etching on it for sale at one time. And he sold all the stuff as genuine. (Screen shots and descriptions are all saved on the Hj forum)
Of course even something that was not allowed to be made at that time, could still "be around" and given to someone at Xmas. There must have been old stock and surplus all over the Reich in places, even untill the last day. Just not fantasy stuff like Johnson and Wittmann and many others in their club sell.

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I'd say you're correct! timothy

Fake awards

So, twenty years ago I was huge into collecting and trying to be an "expert" on German army and Luft FJ badges and awards. I purchased plenty from Eric Queen and a small fortune in trinkets from several local guys who were all the "top collectors" in 3R badges and awards. Long story short, showing my collection at shows, half the "experts" said this, this, and this is fake, this if real, other half saying the opposite. It all came to head, and ended 3R FJ award and badge collecting for me when I took some original Luft ground assault and FJ qualification badges to a local dealer who proclaimed them all fake, as the guy I had purchased them from was standing there, and he told the dealer, "I bought these all from you" (talking to dealer). Full money refunded to me cash on the spot, done. No thanks. I wish I could name names of authors and dealers who trapped themselves. It was embarrassing. I will finish by saying all of the signed FJ Willrich post cards and trinkets I bought from Eric Queen were 100% legit. Wish I had some of that stuff back. You need a deep wallet, amazing education in the field, and balls of steel to deal in awards and badges. I still dabble in the questionable with WW2 GI patches. I'm sure I'll get badly burned in this field too, eventually.