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What is considered to be rare in 3R collecting?

The "Deshler hoard" was a hoard of unissued KvK medals found in Russia and sold by Weitze, one of the big German medal dealers.

Was Philly Cat involved?
- There is a chance he worked as the middle men between the picker and Weitze.:laugh:

Ah, that doesn't look unreasonable. Is that the entire hoard? Is a KVKII still like $15? As long as the "hoard" doesn't become limitless as some hoards are want to do ;)
 
Ah, that doesn't look unreasonable. Is that the entire hoard? Is a KVKII still like $15? As long as the "hoard" doesn't become limitless as some hoards are want to do ;)


It was larger then what you see on the images I found online.
All the mint/unissued KVK's from Deshler you come across almost certainly originate from this "hoard".
I think the real value was more in the cardboard boxes then in the actual medals, which are indeed one of cheapest 3R medals you can buy.
This isn't indeed a dangerous hoard.
 
Their certainly are hoards, in my field of collecting they tend to come from archive sources.
For example the KL Sachsenhausen Wehrpaßer from the Stasi archives or the ID booklets from the MIA pilots that were looted from the Freiburg archive.
But these are documented hoards, the thief and dealers that sold the MIA pilots documents were caught and came before a judge in Germany.
The dangerous hoards are the undocument ones that come with a Philly Cat type of provenance story and don't seem to stop producing.

PS. On the KL Sachsenhausen WP's the hoard has a negative influence on the price, they are the cheapest KL ID booklets you can buy, simply because they are far from rare and you come across them rather often, especially if you compare them to similar WP's from other KL's.
 
Ok all Nazis metals are fake... waf sucks.. you made your point.

Metals , awards , whatever we want to refer to them as... I took the initial comment at face value and tried to offer an intelligent and though out reason why so much surplus of awards or any ww2 items are awash in this day and age. The production was based on speculation and when that wasn't met surplus is what happens.

This was always going to swing around back to where it did... I knew it would.

I'm not going to say I don't care cause I don't collect them as that is the wrong frame of mind . Things I do collect are heavily faked and I do my best to self educate and that sometimes forces one self to seek out all the current forums on the web to gather info good an bad alike.

Just like people who seek out god then either find a good priest or one that fondles their children. There is good and bad in all walks of life.
 
It's an interesting thread and I have some things, which fit to this topic in my opinion. The awards had a significance, so high that even a loss was called in the "Army Decree-Sheet" and the "General Army Communications" published by the Army High Command.


1062. Loss of an E.K.=shipment.

By courier were on June 30, 1940 by the Generalkommando (General Command) XXX.

87 Iron Crosses 2nd. Class

sent from Thaon to II./J.R. 125 via the "Kommandanten des rückwärtigen Armeegebietes" (Commanders of the rear army). A receipt has been attached to the shipment. This E.K.=shipment did not arrive at II./J.R. 125.

Investigations by the Generalkommando (General Command) XXX., II./J.R. 125 and the "Kommandanten des rückwärtigen Armeegebietes" (Commanders of the rear army) have been inconclusive.

Since there is a possibility that the shipment was accidentally sent to another troop part, it is requested, when the consignment is located, to immediately make it available to the O. K. H./PA (P 2) Gr. IV.

O. K. H., October 7, 1940
- 29 (s) - P 2 (IV).




1202. Iron Crosses 1st Class.

In Sermaize-les-Bains (France) were

2 Iron Crosses 1st Class

found and sent to the HPA/P 2 (V b).

We ask that these Iron Crosses 1st Class get requested from the above office if the claim is justified.

O. K. H., November 22, 1940
29 a 12 (s) - P 2 (Gr. V/V b).



I have some more orders, also restrictions of public sale of awards like the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross. If I have time later and you are interested, I will translate some more.

Regards,
Stephan
 
Peter,
Do blank or unissued Wehrpaßer turn up very often?

They are out there, I have seen them but they aren't very common; empty Soldbucher are easier to find but I don't collect either of these, so I don't look for them.
 
There's the G/K43 pouch cache they found in eastern Europe a few years back. Pouches were expensive then they became cheap. Your big time dealers were pissed. Your $300 pouch became $70.
 
Thanks for that information Stephan!
It really proofs my point, that an EKII is indeed a bravery medal that wasn't awarded liberally.
There served +/- 18.2 million men in the German army in WW2, less then 10% was awarded an EKII and even less then 1% was awarded an EKI; that is less then 182.000 EKI's awarded.
How many EKI's have you seen on militaria show and on websites?.......
 
There's the G/K43 pouch cache they found in eastern Europe a few years back. Pouches were expensive then they became cheap. Your big time dealers were pissed. Your $300 pouch became $70.

Good example of a cache. Back in the day those pouches were $500+ and unobtainable. The reenactor repros cost more than originals do now. I have about 10 of them because it seemed incredible to me that I could buy them for $50-75, the ersatz "vinyl" ones as well!
 
hoardes do exist

I got a thompson 1928 kit and mint condition original mag pouch and minty 50 rd drum, a few of those G-43 pouches, and a few soft leather P-38 holsters stored like Ice cream cones, east german luger and P-38 holsters from the 50's un issued and un-used, I can go on and on

Just think of all the MP-40. MP-44 still in storage in eastern europe they are still there or the US foreign aid firearms waiting to come home

I have know since the mid 70's that 3rd Reich memorabilia was mostly fake, I would not even look at that stuff unless Micro Joe was with me
 
I’m still kicking myself for not jumping on the Thompson bandwagon when those kits came out. Short-sightedness on my part...:facepalm:
 
I guess I’m missing what exactly is being hinted at? That someone is continuously producing commonly accepted EK2’s in a champagne-ruin type scheme? Probably not worth it for an $80 medal...
 
I guess I’m missing what exactly is being hinted at? That someone is continuously producing commonly accepted EK2’s in a champagne-ruin type scheme? Probably not worth it for an $80 medal...

An $80 medal made in Eastern Europe has a lot of room for profit. You make 100 per year, and that's some nice money on the side.
 
I guess I’m missing what exactly is being hinted at? That someone is continuously producing commonly accepted EK2’s in a champagne-ruin type scheme? Probably not worth it for an $80 medal...

Bigd, they've been knocking off all manner of low end medals since the 80s, which became a flood in the 90s, with black wound badges, IABs, etc all knocked off. So are EKIIs. Micro can tell more than I can.
 
Bigd, they've been knocking off all manner of low end medals since the 80s, which became a flood in the 90s, with black wound badges, IABs, etc all knocked off. So are EKIIs. Micro can tell more than I can.

I guess i can see that. But seems just as possible that a factory and all contents were captured and brought to Russia just to be discovered later. As mentioned it happened with g/k pouches and also happened with ersatz (specifically police) p38/pp/ppk holsters etc.

Also you see plenty of soldbücher with no weapon entries at all or far fewer k98 entries than we know exist. Sure entries exist but you certainly wouldn’t estimate 15M k98s produced from the number of k98 soldbuch entries...
 
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Huge numbers of German medals, campaign shields, specialty badges, awards, etc. have been faked as long as I've been collecting and they have gotten greater in number and quality. I'd say one can safely presume 80% of what you see is fake.
 
. SS daggers and such were being fabricated in 1945 for sale and trade to GIs. So too were SS helmets, etc. Camo and wire helmets were exceedingly scarce then, as they were not popular. A 99% helmet and 99% decal was popular.

The majority of the stuff out there, even simple gear, is humped.

That is for sure Ham I can attest first hand to that I still have the famous SA dagger made with a B&A in a cross makers mark on blade they were made shortely after the war for souviners to sell to the occupation GI'S there is a Luftwaffe second model too how many other I haven't seen they were the true "Parts dagger" got it when I was about 13 also. There must have been a big demand for medals, badges, and daggers post war for the GI'S to bring home. timothy
 
I guess I’m missing what exactly is being hinted at? That someone is continuously producing commonly accepted EK2’s in a champagne-ruin type scheme? Probably not worth it for an $80 medal...

This are the figures of actual German army bravery medals awarded during WW2:
- KC: 7161
- GC in Gold: +/- 26.000
- Honour roll clasp: 4556
The names of owners of these medals are listed and known.
For the EK we can only work with estimates but the numbers should be like less then 200.000 EKI's and less then 2.000.000 EKII, this are figures of an army in which 18.2 million men served.
Note that most of the men that received these bravery medals fought exclusively on the Eastern front and didn't come in to contact with souvenir hunting GI's, so there medals could never have been American war trophies that were discovered in garage sales in the US.




The problem is that there aren't enough authentic WW2 period issued medal that survived the war to supply the demand for all the collectors world wide but dealers solved this problem with finding new overstocks again and again.
These illustrious overstocks have been hitting the market for a very long time and they are kind of magical or very huge because they never seem to stop giving.
My estimated guess is that more then 80% of what you see of German WW2 medals is post war made, I have the feeling that original templates have survived and were used post war.


The best example to proof my point is the KC ribbon.
How many KC's mint in a box with a piece of ribbon have you seen compared to a worn ribbon?
- Personally I have seen a handful of KC's with a worn ribbon but I have seen dozens of KC's in boxes.
Overstock KC's? They had awarded 7000 upon the war end in May 1945, were they expecting another 7000 would be awarded in 1946 if they war had continued a year longer?
The numbers of KC's that have been sold to collectors doesn't make any sense, not even if you believe KC holders had more then one KC.

One of the facts of a real hoard is that it dries up relatively fast.
For example when the looted MIA pilots ID booklets hit the market in the 1990's every militaria dealer had a bunch of them.
Now you see them once in a while and there are years I haven't seen any and the once I have seen are from a collector that sells something from his collection.
And the same can be said of the KL-Sachsenhausen WP's and Waffen SS artillery personel files.
The medals and badges overstock hoards never dry up.
 
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