Third Party Press

The "SS Honor Ring" Wheels come off....

It does look like a very good case has been presented with the pictures that two apparently "different" rings, engraved and named to two different people, are from the same ring casting. So, given what I saw, either that is the case, which is bad, or that is the same ring in two separate picture sets. If the latter, where is the proof or response of that?

I think microscopic examination is necessary in proving whether a ring is cast. In this instance, what was shown is pretty convincing that the two separate rings (if there are in fact two) have the same flaws and damage and appear from the same casting. Given that showing, at this point it is up to those opposing that position to put forth more convincing proof that: a) they are the same ring, not two different rings; or b) they are two different rings with the same wear and flaws which can be explained rationally. I think b) is a hard row to hoe.
 
nirvana said:
So what is the necessary level of magnification that would satisfy you? And if you had that level, how would you know that the marks aren't just die errors? The answer is that you can't.
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Watch any one of my videos, read any one of the books I have written on exposing/authenticating Third Reich Militaria using a microscopic examination, and you`ll have your answer.
You`ll need between 40-80x depth magnification, preferably using an inspection microscope. If you could go the whole hog and use the 3D microscope I make my videos with, you`d be helping collectors imensly. Otherwise a garden variety 10-80 depth scope from , say AMScope, would be enough if you just wanted stills for a forum or book.

Now to the latter... not really sure if you are trying to have a bit of fun with me, or with yourself?
How would you know? Seriously, you wasted good forum space writing that? Well I`ll tell you, but that`s about where it stops between you and I tonight, as it`s crystal that you have not bothered to read anything I posted on this thread. If you had, you would not have asked that.

You would know, because you would have, clear, detailed, microscopic imagery. That`s how you would know. :thumbsup:
Because clear, detailed, microscopic images ,will show you everything you need to know, in order to be able to attribute - correctly, irrefutably - an oddity as being a die flaw, a cast line, a casting hole or whatever else it is you would like to assume you are seeing on stolen, third party, blurred camera images with added finger-painting.

I am not the one who needs to be satisfied at all here, in fact threads like the one Antonio started at the WAF - and has subsequently been pinned -are what I feed off of, and would be quite happy if they just carried on and morphed into a total disaster.
Misinformation, jumping to conclusions based on unclear images, various opinions on what is being promoted as factual evidence, stupidity, these are all things I reference time and time again in literature and in videos, so If it was only myself seeking satisfaction, I would not have posted anything on the Honor ring topic, and just sat back and collected footnotes and film matarial, and watched people digging themselves into holes that could very easily have been avoided.

The original poster of the WAF thread sugguests exactly what is needed, to be 100% sure, in a previous post he made about rings, a microscopic examination! And even offered to do one for free on the one ring! He never heard back and got angry, and hence this new thread from him, scolding and sladering on the basis of? nothing, unlcear imagery that proves nothing at all.
Everything he has finger-painted onto the stolen, unclear, third party images can be challenged.
BUT, and I posted this a few hours ago on this very thread, BUT... if he had clear, good, microscopic images, nothing could be challenged at all.
So he jumped the gun, and has tried to expose a scam that is not only just not there, but is doing more harm than good because he has no irrefutable evidence, no fruit, no beans, no meat, nothing at all except... stolen, unclear, third party images taken with a potato.
 
He didn't really "steal" the images if they are subject to the "Fair Use Doctrine" (though they may not be, a whole other issue). In any event, the pics I saw and the way they were presented were very persuasive, as in, such that they transferred the burden to show otherwise to the seller of those rings. The next level, beyond discussion, involves microscopic examination. I believe that would be definitive. I think the poster is asking that his allegations and "proof" receive a substantive rebuttal. I think he's presented sufficient evidence to warrant that. If it is the same ring and the OP has misidentified the pics in error or otherwise, that could be and should be shown. My opinions all.
 
Hambone said:
...the pics I saw and the way they were presented were very persuasive, as in, such that they transferred the burden to show otherwise to the seller of those rings. .
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:laugh:That`s to emphasize that the images are third party, and not taken by the person asserting this and that.
Well no, because this never ever happens, at least I cannot recall a sinlge incident where any "reputation" has ever supplied detailed images, or more images, or better images, or helped in any way to further a discussion that would lead to him being strung up. (And the ring is sold now, or so it has been said) And he has already been strung up anyway, in fact he is swinging, so what reason does he have to participate?

If I want to expose a scam, or simply expose a fake, then I do it. On my own time, with the produt in-hand, either sent to me or purchased myself.
I can`t see how you can start a thread off by using someone else`s images - without their permission even - adding a lot of opinion to them, starting a which hunt, chanting "fraud" and then expect the person you have strung up to help you out.

If anyone else wants to expose a scam or expose a fake, they have to do it on their own, because you are not going to get help, especially not from the dealer who has sold that fake, or sold the item you are deeming to be fake.

Why does there need to be a detailed investigation into Honor rings? Since 2000, 5 books have been written by collectors about them :thumbsup: And before that a few as well.
Or could it just be, that all of these books are nothing more than a long WAF thread, with simple point and look images shown, followed by opinion, with not a shred of detailed, factual, useful information? A possible reason why the SS-mann jewelry department is in tatters :facepalm:

Apart from researchers like myself who are prepared to go the whole hog, all we usually get are threads like this WAF disaster.
Third party potato images, opinions, conclusions coming from those who couldn`t tell their left hand from their right, followed by a virtual execution. Teams build, the community further splits, friends are lost, new ones are gained, a few anonymous posters are banned, and next week it`s business as usual.
 
Some Wiki info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-Ehrenring

According to the webpage fewer then 5.000 of these rings were awarded, nevertheless some COA writers claims that he has handled 400-500 originals, that is 10% or more.
That 10% is most likely the precentage of rings souvenired by American soldiers.
The 90% he didn't inspect were most likely those that were souvenired by Red Army men, they had a better chance of coming across one of these then western allied soldiers. :facepalm:
 
One of the posters in the WAF thread claimed that the rings "aren't rare." That should say something about this area of the hobby.
 
Peter U said:
According to the webpage fewer then 5.000 of these rings were awarded, nevertheless some COA writers claims that he has handled 400-500 originals, that is 10% or more.
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Yes, but don`t forget that this guy has been focused on Honor rings for decades, and been the kinda "go to man" for these for ages, so he will naturally have seen a lot. And being a human bean*, 100 or 200 can easily turn into 400 or 500 just because 500 carries more weight than 100, and because everyone knows how long he has been doing it so 500 would sound OK.
It`s also irrelevant what people say, unless of course you were just a sheep-collector who cared more about the piece of paper that came with the item.
Unfortunately many do, take Detlev Niemann for example, or Don Bible when it comes to GESTAPO discs.
These old paper tagged items unfortunately exsist across the hobby. With daggers or edged weapons in general, we always (almost exclusively) heard the names Johnson and Wittmann for decades!

nirvana said:
One of the posters in the WAF thread claimed that the rings "aren't rare." That should say something about this area of the hobby.
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Whether that`s true or not, I guess, could only be determined by someone who has focused on these for ages, and not be taken as law just because someone on a forum claims something.
There are also going to be many occasions where the same ring will be shown, and sold on one forum, only to turn up again either presented or offered for sale, and again - and again... so without detailed study and "specifically following the items around the net" you`ll never be 100% sure. And if we are just going to rely on what someone posts, well that`s just words.

And anyone could find any kind of banal Third Reich item listed for sale with "Very scarce" attached to it, that`s nothing more than a sales pitch in most cases. With high dollar items people usually attach very rare to everything, to somehow justify the price.

Honor ring collectors and sellers are stuck between a rock and a hard place anyway, because of the hype attached to the item, and the asking prices. Why would anyone who has paid 10 000 for an item, be willing to accept that the item is in fact available any day of the week to those who have a spare 10 000, and not as rare as he was made to believe? So it`s a cat chasing his tail situation that will never end, unless someone decided to do acurate, factual research on them, and provide the true story.
Not my cup of tea anyway, way too expensive for a small badge collector and not a very interesting item.
But, that`s because I don`t own one! If I did own one, you had best believe that I would not have written that, and would be continuing the hype, because sooner or later I would like to sell mine.

And while we are on about "die casting lines, :argue: on the genuine GESTAPO disc I examined a year or so ago, there is a line observed on one of the letters :biggrin1:
Does that mean that it is cast? Could it mean that? Even with this nice detailed micro image below, it still doesn`t prove 100% that the line is cast or not? But, a full examination of the whole item, does indeed prove that it is not cast, and that the line is a tooling error in the steel working die. So to be 100% sure of anything, one must be thorough, and afford the items a detailed and fair inspection, and not jump to conclusions. Even with good microscopic images, one image alone could still be left open to interpretation in many instances. So this is why I know that camera images are useless when definitive proof or evidence is required.

*done on purpose.
gesapo-dw-e-4456.jpg
 
nirvana said:
One of the posters in the WAF thread claimed that the rings "aren't rare." That should say something about this area of the hobby.
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He probably means compared to like buying Waffen SS original Mona Lisas and SS original Thinker statues and such.
 
Hmm. "reputation assassination"... Pretty strong stuff. I wonder which 'unscrupulous individuals' he's talking about?

threats.PNG
 
I would like to hear more from those either engaged in or with a knowledge of jewelry manufacture. The days of purchasing any SS items without extensive research passed decades ago and those I know in the trade with actual expert knowledge of these items are themselves, occasionally "taken."
 
oldcorps said:
I would like to hear more from those either engaged in or with a knowledge of jewelry manufacture. The days of purchasing any SS items without extensive research passed decades ago and those I know in the trade with actual expert knowledge of these items are themselves, occasionally "taken."
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What sort of questions do you have? I have a working knowledge of some stuff, as I've done a painful amount of research on the topic, but I'm not an expert by any means.
 
jhv 41 said:
...are these things real SS
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If there are strands of Heinrich Himmler`s hair inside, then they are real. The fake ones are easy to spot, they usually have modern visor and uniform insignia stuck on in a crude way, and look rather silly on the whole. And have no hair inside.
How would you know if it was Heinrich`s hair? Simple, any hair found inside an object that has SS runes crudly punched into it, is!
At least that`s what an auctioneer once told me.
 
nirvana, the manufacturing process used on the originals would be helpful. Were these moulded or punched from dies? Was there more than one piece in their construction? Was HH's signature stamped-in or engraved? What was the standard of purity of the silver actually used and were other minerals added? These are such rare items that any variations would have to be extremely limited.
 
jhv 41 said:
Not to get too off topic, but since Ham brought up SS items....the age old question....are these things real SS or Memorex?
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Yes they are real. Rare and valuable weapons from the secret SS astrosturbanngrupennfuhrer issue space suit for the SS space invasion program. The non-gun buckles, super rare in their own right, had lighting bolt runes with the logo: "Zuerst der Mond, Dann Uranus"
 
oldcorps said:
nirvana, the manufacturing process used on the originals would be helpful. Were these moulded or punched from dies? Was there more than one piece in their construction? Was HH's signature stamped-in or engraved? What was the standard of purity of the silver actually used and were other minerals added? These are such rare items that any variations would have to be extremely limited.
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I'm familiar with jewelry generally, but I'll say what I know here. The band was die stamped out of one piece of silver. It was then bent into a ring shape and soldered. The joint is right behind the skull. The skull was made as a second piece and then soldered on. Ring was sized and then engraved.
 
Nirvana, the rings at issue are properly made and the OP who called BS is blowing smoke?
 
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