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Interesting Gew 88

Holy mother of inspections! I believe I counted 14? different stamps on the bottom of the receiver. It would seem a lot of craftsman had their hands on this piece.
 
I respect John Sheehan a great deal, he is a first rate collector and researcher, but I disagree that "ERF" equates to Erfurt. A collector buddy and I have gone over this when Larry's rifle popped up, initially I though much the same as JPS, but when recording the rifle I immediately noticed Erfurt stopped G88 production in 1891, with only a lone 1892 and two 1895's known. Erfurt moved strongly into the K88 during 1893 and my bet is they did not make any G88's in 1893, certainly not to the o-p blocks (these being the two lone G88 known if ERF=Erfurt)

Acceptance of course is irregular on the RR, but this rifle has none of the 6-8 inspectors typically found on an Erfurt. Further Spandau did go this high and further in 1893 and the serialing/suffix compare well.

I do not know what ERF means, but I doubt it is Erfurt.
 
I respect John Sheehan a great deal, he is a first rate collector and researcher, but I disagree that "ERF" equates to Erfurt. A collector buddy and I have gone over this when Larry's rifle popped up, initially I though much the same as JPS, but when recording the rifle I immediately noticed Erfurt stopped G88 production in 1891, with only a lone 1892 and two 1895's known. Erfurt moved strongly into the K88 during 1893 and my bet is they did not make any G88's in 1893, certainly not to the o-p blocks (these being the two lone G88 known if ERF=Erfurt)

Acceptance of course is irregular on the RR, but this rifle has none of the 6-8 inspectors typically found on an Erfurt. Further Spandau did go this high and further in 1893 and the serialing/suffix compare well.

I do not know what ERF means, but I doubt it is Erfurt.

Hey Loewe! Good to know I was under the impression that it did mean Erfurt, but this indeed does make sense, I will have to go back, and look into this, if I can find anything! Thank you Gage!
 
Yes, I thought the same, but it would seem the acceptance markings would dispel the ERF.=Erfurt theory. Interesting rifles that may remain a mystery for now.
 
I can't say I am 100% sure its not Erfurt in some manner or another, it just doesn't fit with what has been currently observed. Perhaps Erfurt made the receiver for Spandau and ERF is some form of accountability or source code, but the way the receiver is marked suggests this "ERF" wasn't applied second hand or at a different time than the rest of the markings, - which typically is how other the process is when a receiver is sent somewhere else.

Maybe some of our German collector friends can suggest a meaning for ERF as a modification or process in mfg.
 
snip...I do not know what ERF means, but I doubt it is Erfurt.

I am surprised by your analysis here. I know you follow trends, inspection markings, and fire proofing very well, but what else could the 'ERF' be other than Erfurt?

I note that the 1893 date is off-set, not centered under the Spandau marking, seemingly added after the crown/Spandau roll mark. The fonts of the 'ERF' appear spot on to Erfurt production

If not Erfurt, then who?
 
Ken, You are entitled to your opinion, but not deciding mine; I was very specific why I doubt this ERF=Erfurt.

Perhaps if you can find a Erfurt/1893 G88 it might lend some support for this rifle being Erfurt made, - and before you hang your hat on the fonts in ERF looks like ERFURT's name on receivers, you might consider how irregular Erfurt/1893 K88 receivers can be, specifically the dates, where you can find different style numbers in the dates during the same year. Even variations in the crown...

What doesn't seem to vary much is I have never encountered a Erfurt G88 made in 1893, certainly not with such a high suffix. Which is what led me to question this ERF theory in the first place...

I am surprised by your analysis here. I know you follow trends, inspection markings, and fire proofing very well, but what else could the 'ERF' be other than Erfurt?

I note that the 1893 date is off-set, not centered under the Spandau marking, seemingly added after the crown/Spandau roll mark. The fonts of the 'ERF' appear spot on to Erfurt production

If not Erfurt, then who?
 

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Paul, certainly not impugning your knowledge or opinion. I should not have quoted you directly, but rather posed the question in general terms to the forum as to 'if not Erfurt, then who'.

Though I've owned a dozen or more 88's (currently 3), I have not studied them at great length. They are unique and cool in the Imperial sense, but nowhere near the coolness of Gew98/Kar98 variants that I favor (88's do trade far cheaper too). Subject rifle is a type I have not laid eyes on. I've seen them with the /date, but that seems more common and agreed upon as to the marking difference.

The only literature I have on 88's is Storz German Military Rifles 88 & 91, and the rather poorly done (IMO) Scarlata 88 book.
 
Understood Ken, we go back a long way and I took it as a challenge, - anyone else and I'd leaned into them, but I thought in this case it probably a misunderstanding.

PaulS book is a general introduction study for collectors and Storz is an archival study, though with the G88 Storz did bring in actual collectors for observations of actual rifles, so it is a better book than his G98 book, which is riddled with flaws because it relies entirely upon archival material and museum collections. While i admit if you had to chose between a archival/museum focused study or a purely observations based study there would be little argument that the former would be preferred, but Storz had no such dilemma and the greatest flaws in the book are due to his translator (which was miserable) and his lack of collector observations.

Luckily Storz remedied these problems with the 88 and 71- 71/84 studies and the translations are greatly improved. I still do highly recommend all three books, although I only bought the M98 book, two different collector friends gifted the other two to me and I find all three very useful.

Regarding the ERF, the collector friend I have been discussing this with has been pondering about the possibility that this is a verb based definition. I am still openminded to any thoughtful observation or suggestion, but so far the observations I have suggest this rifle was more likely made by Spandau than Erfurt and that if the ERF=Erfurt, it would be identifying the receiver source as Erfurt rather than finishing by Erfurt. While Erfurt made a lot of G88 in 1891, only a relative handful were probably made in 1892 (only one confirmed 2497/b) and perhaps these are some form of diverted receiver to Spandau. As before there are a couple Erfurt/1895's known with Erfurt acceptance patterns (a-b blocks) and one Erfurt/1894 reported (4594/a), but I see no reasonable/rational explanation for two rifles in the o-p range to show up for Erfurt during a year none are known. There are more enthusiastic (determined) collectors of the G88 out there and they may have seen some Erfurt/1893's, but i can't imagine it being many or anywhere approaching o-p blocks. Also the suffix "p" on known Erfurt production differs from the ERF rifle in the p-block (I have no o-block to compare the "o" too, but I do have Spandau recordings and they compare well...)

Following this I will do a comparison of suffixes, - while things like acceptance and suffix styles may not move some collectors, I have found them most reliable supporting evidence. (production ranges, even if granting the fact that observations are a trifling number compared to actual made, are also excellent guides. More useful with original documents and archival material, - which is where Storz work becomes invaluable)
 
Spandau/1893-ERF p-block and 1890 Erfurt 7303 p

A comparison of the suffix "p", 3 years apart, so limited value (often suffix styles change year to year), but I have no Erfurt/1891 p-block recorded and it is extremely unlikely Erfurt made many G88 after 1891. 1892, 1894, 1895 they are known, but very low suffix ranges and few in number (a total of four and one is a report)
 

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Spandau/1893 p-block

Here is a Spandau/1893 p-block (1893 Spandau 4189 p), take note of the RR, identical to the ERF Spandau/1893
 

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1893 Erfurt 2403 q

Oddly enough timing wise, Larry came up with a Erfurt/1893 G88 and its importance to this subject being what it is, I decided to make a post regarding its existence. The pictures are bad, the rifle is significantly mismatched and the serial suffix is difficult to decipher with available pictures, but it does confirm the existence of a Erfurt/1893 with a significant suffix range.
 

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