Gewehr 98a oddity

Does anybody know what this rifle is? Its marked 98a, where Mausers are usually marked Gewehr 98 or Karabiner 98 and the reciver seems to be scrubbed and reserialised. The receiver also bears a proof mark, possibly Erfurt or DWM?

Thanks for any inputs.

Think Poland...

If you can, do pictures of the barrel and any markings on the stock, but my bet is this is Polish work. Is there some marking on top receiver? Looks like Radom's triangle?

Never mind, I see the triangle "Z", this is Polish. These "Z" builds are typically extensive salvage jobs, many queer and bizarre concoctions. Almost all have "K" suffixes and typically are crude builds around German parts.

I believe John Wall once said these are sub-depots of a larger operation, small ordnance shops of a sort that built rifles. The "Z" equating to the Polish word sub-armory or small shop, or something like that. Unfortunately Very little is written in English regarding Polish small arms. From my understanding the language is very foreign to western ears, and unlike German (which shares many words English speakers use - obvious reasons due to German ties to early English history) is hard to muddle through. I once read that even Germans have a devil of a time understanding Polish, a very unique language.

Anyway, the MRJ published two short articles on Polish rifles, both written by Poles, they are the best material I have seen but you can tell English was not the authors primary language. You might take this rifle to TP's Gunboards-Mauser forum, there are some Polish collectors there that can do good work. (But do more pictures here, I have extensive files on Poland and Polish rifles, especially these builds around German rifles...)

John Wall 2006

John Wall
Platinum Bullet Club


USA
1915 PostsPosted - 11/12/2006 : 09:43:54 AM


Hi Rich,
I believe this is the mark you are talking about on a Polish Berthier.

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On Polish Mausers however, there are two varieties of Z-in-triangle marks. One, the letters "FB" in a triangle, is generally regarding as Radom factory mark, the "FB" standing for "Fabryka Broni", as in Fabryka Broni Radom. The same marks also appears on VIS 35 pistols if I recall correctly. (Don't own any handguns, so beware.)

The second variety of triangle mark in the rounded corner triangle with the letter "z" in it.

In the picture below, you can see three Polish Mausers with the triangle stamps:

1. The top rifle is a German Gewehr 98 with the FB-in-triangle mark, with original WFM text crest and 1916 date.

2. The second rifle from the top is similar to # 1, with original German crest and date untouched, having been made at Danzig in 1916, This however has the z-in-rounded triangle mark on its receiver. It has also been rebarreled and renumbered in a Poland.

3. The rifle at the very bottom of the picture is a sub-variety of # 2 with a receiver which has been completely scrubbed and a new Z-in-triangle stamp added. It is an Amberg (Bavaria) Gewehr 98 with a scrubbed receiver which has been rebarreled and converted to Wz.98a configuration

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In the next picture below, notice the interesting "z" mark on the second rifle from the top, the Danzig 1916. Look at the barrel carefully, and in spite of my woozy photography, you can see not only the z-in-triangle mark, but on the barrel, there is a z-in-square mark. While inspecting several Polish long Mauser rifles, I have noticed a number of these marks:
1. a "z"-in-circle
2. a "z"-in-square-
3. a "z"-in-triangle-
4. a "z"-in-octagon
5. a "z"-in-oval, etc.

Unfortunately, I do not have solid documented proof as to what these z-marks means, but (here's where truth gets squishy!) I was told by a Polish arms colector (whose first language is Polish) that the letter "Z" stands for the Polish word "zbrojovnia, or as another source spells it "zbrojownina". (Not sure which is correct.) This word was translated for me as a "small armory" or a "satelite armory" of a larger arms factory. I agree with Clay that this factory could very well have been Radom, but I do not know that for sure. Unfortunately, although a lot of Polish rifle literature exists in Polish, very, vey little as been translated into English and what has been, both in book form and Internet, is 95% unsubstantiated, so we have no way of double checking anything.

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The most interesting question on Polish Mauser marking to me is what the family of "z" marks (in those many geometric) shapes means!
Regards,
John



Edited by - John Wall on 11/12/2006 09:49:44 AM

Thanks alot for such a in depth and fast answer Loewe.

Excerpt from the 1997 MRJ article. This marking apparently pre-date the formal arsenals, basically a less formal ordnance operation that made rifles from salvaged German rifles before the Poles could actually start rifle production at Warsaw (1923) (or later at Radom in 1927).

I'm guessing the "98a" on the side rail is in reference to the Polish WZ98a as it is a long rifle vs. a typical WZ29/K98K length rifle...

What are these rifles valued at, compared to similar german rifles?

I do not know what Polish rifles pull in Europe, however they are worth a premium in the United States, possibly because of the large ethnic population here. In many cases, with upper grade rifles especially, they can rival or surpass "nazi" rifle / 98k ranges. Naturally, rifles such as yours that are less "obvious" to the vast unwashed (rabble of gun collectors/accumulators that have never broken the spine of a book); this rifle might be more of a challenge to properly peddle for top dollar. Rifles without easily noticed bold labels like Warszawa or Radom might suffer from an identity crises on venues like Gun Broker, eGun etc... however, at least in the US, the people that will pay the most tend to be the more informed and with proper photographs they will easily be able to identify your rifle for what it is... I could tell it was Polish by the serial alone, and I am not a Polish specialist, so those that specializes in Polish rifles should be able to identify it easily.

Naturally, like almost anything (except so-called rc's apparently) condition matters, your rifle doesn't appear to be refinished (which is extremely important unless you are buying an rc apparently), but you do not show how original matching the components are and that tends to matter even with Polish rifles.

It seems these are far more elusive than the normal factory production rifles (Warsaw & Radom), my bet is these are more scarce than normal Polish production. Though a Polish collector may place less value on a rifle that isn't purely a Polish made rifle, these rifles are thoroughly refurbished rifles made of German components, or at least for the most part. Many seem to have gone through subsequent Polish work and picked up Polish made components.

Do more pictures of the matching components? Specifically the stock markings and barrel markings.

balkslak said:

What are these rifles valued at, compared to similar german rifles?

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