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Thread: Interesting 98m

  1. #11
    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    The more I thought about it the more i am convinced that the barrel is a later German addition. Not only the waffenamt (which these barrels have been seen before, - namely that remnants from Radom were e/77 acceptanced and used by ordnance staffs), but also the fact that the barrel seems to lack a corresponding Polish FP on the barrel, which seems to be universal on Polish re-barrels (when the Poles re-barreled a rifle they FP the RR and the barrel in the general location of the right side, generally in-line with the RR FP)

    When this rifle was originally re-barreled, the new "Polish" barrel would have had a corresponding FP on the right side, generally in-line with the RR FP we can see here. That is it lacking, along with the waffenamt, strongly suggests this is a subsequent re-barrel by the Germans using a salvaged Polish barrel...

    Anyway, pretty confident that this is the case, though it sure would be nice to have the original stock as that alone would probably confirm the story of who, when & where.

  2. #12
    RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual heavy_mech's Avatar
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    While I have much less knowledge in this respect I also agree this is a 'later' German rebarrel where the barrel when through the path you charted. The 'who' and 'when' is the big question. Certainly as you stated the stock would most likely tell the tale. I wonder if it's still possible to narrow down either of those questions?
    "Wen Tausend einen Mann erschlagen, das ist nicht Ruhm, das ist nicht Ehre, denn beinsen wird's in späteren tagen gesiegt hat doch das Deutsch Heer. Podest nicht die Paten der Soldaten doner die da Sterben sollen, soll man geben was sie wollen, sahs sie Herzen, sahs sie Küssen, den sie wissen nicht wann sie sterben müssen"

  3. #13
    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    Well Ingolstadt (Bavaria) was tasked with repair and distribution of Polish small arms, they probably had help, but Ingolstadt was a significant facility, a long history back to Imperial times as a workshop. Also an artillery depot i believe, - pretty important throughout the republican period, even inspected by the IAMCC (significant riots took place there and French inspectors were injured, - became something of a diplomatic nightmare for the German government... Bavaria was a total pain in the ass at the time, constantly resisting Versailles and the central government. The German government had to pay a significant fine due to this incident, - in gold.) In WWI they also reworked and stored rifles (they are a common reworker of off-standard small arms, pistols and foreign rifles, but German also)

    No way to be sure, especially going off a single FP, but I doubt anyone could come up with a better scenario... the possibility of SDP-Radom cross my mind, but i doubt it, I have seen a couple Polish rifles than seem to have been worked up early in the occupation, but the details escape me at the moment. Some experienced collectors have suggested the possibility that Radom operated early on or possibly for the SS, but I do not know what this is based upon, other than a couple rifles, - what we do know is the Germans didn't trust the Poles any further than they could throw them and barrel production was never contemplated in Poland due to this fact.

  4. #14
    Senior Member flynaked's Avatar
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    Here are my thoughts on the “when.” I believe this maybe somewhat of a late war rebuild.. but first a question, how late is Ingolstadt known to be active? Here’s my thought progression; first off the sight base, single e26, Borsigwalde. So 1941 or later at the earliest, however the base machining does not look concurrent with 1941, so I would raise my guess to an early of 1942. This brings my next question, was Borsigwalde known to have supplied ordnance spares prior to 1943? Not that I’m aware of. Moving on to 1944, we see the cessation of 98k assembly from Borsigwalde and an influx of leftover e26 parts supplied to various makers from that point on, largely to Brünn. What else happens in 1944? Radom packs it in, leftover parts and barrels head south to Steyr and maybe?? The next part, the s/42 sight ramp maybe indicative of being completed by a depot previously engaged in 98m conversions having those parts remaining in stock. Compound all this with the fact that many non standard weapons are assembled in 44/45, commercial builds etc, theoretically for local militia, of which many 98m configuration weapons are seen in use in period pictures. The ”who” good question; likely a depot previously engaged in 98m conversions, and receiving left over parts from both Wittenau and Radom. Is proximity and the flow of parts a factor, probably. We already know e26 parts went east to Czechoslovakia, and e77 south to Austria. Ingolstadt is just around the corner, are they likely the largest depot/recipient in this region? What are your thoughts?

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    RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual heavy_mech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynaked View Post
    ..We already know e26 parts went east to Czechoslovakia, and e77 south to Austria. Ingolstadt is just around the corner, are they likely the largest depot/recipient in this region? What are your thoughts?
    That's why I love this shit! Some really interesting observations in your reply.
    "Wen Tausend einen Mann erschlagen, das ist nicht Ruhm, das ist nicht Ehre, denn beinsen wird's in späteren tagen gesiegt hat doch das Deutsch Heer. Podest nicht die Paten der Soldaten doner die da Sterben sollen, soll man geben was sie wollen, sahs sie Herzen, sahs sie Küssen, den sie wissen nicht wann sie sterben müssen"

  6. #16
    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    Waffenamt e/26 was BLM 1936-38, then moved to Berlin (not just MB/Mauser-Berlin); waffenamt e/77 was ERMA 37-38 before moving to Poland in 1939 (not Austria)

    Waffenamt e/26 inspected a lot of thing from Berlin manufacturers, regarding 98k, barrels can carry his inspection from MB (1938 on), Geco & Fritz Werner. Have some things to do at the moment, but I will try and re-read the thoughts and offer some opinions regarding Clay's scenario.

  7. #17
    Senior Member flynaked's Avatar
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    Paul, I had ruled out BLM on that basis of a single e26, 36-38 BLM would carry 3x on the rear sight I believe? That still doesn’t rule out the possibility of it being a spare inspected outside of normal production. As to the e77, I was just referring to the barrel proof which I figured we were assuming was SDP accepted since it’s a polish blank but maybe not? Yeah when you get a chance let me know what you think on this possible scenario my friend.

  8. #18
    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    My comment was not meant to be critical of your scenario, only laying the framework for waffenamt construction for those less familiar (assuming we have an audience...)

    I will have to do some comparisons to offer an opinion, but yes, typically ordnance spare components are marked a little different than parts destine for in-house assembly. Often, especially early on, parts meant for ordnance system are marked to stand alone, - a ordnance code of the mfg and waffenamt. This pattern seems to have waned as the war progressed (or degenerated).

    Waffenamt e/77 was SDP, but only SDP operations in Poland. The inspector inspected a number of Polish firms under German control during the war. SDP used a number of waffenamts, WaA623 for Steyr, e/815 for Graz, e/77 for Radom, e/189 for Warsaw. SDP was a large corporation spread over half a dozen countries, dozens more of smaller shops that serviced their products (service centers essentially); the Polish operations were actually Army owned, but operated by SDP.

    Anyway, not meant to be critical of your post, just some clarifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynaked View Post
    Paul, I had ruled out BLM on that basis of a single e26, 36-38 BLM would carry 3x on the rear sight I believe? That still doesn’t rule out the possibility of it being a spare inspected outside of normal production. As to the e77, I was just referring to the barrel proof which I figured we were assuming was SDP accepted since it’s a polish blank but maybe not? Yeah when you get a chance let me know what you think on this possible scenario my friend.

  9. #19
    RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual heavy_mech's Avatar
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    I took his scenario as 'parts' moved east and south, not the inspection teams. That we've all seen before. Maybe I misunderstood?

    I knew about the 'others' in the Berlin area of inspections producing barrels for the ordinance system. Is there any reason to believe say Geco for instance also made such parts as RSBs as ordinance spares?
    "Wen Tausend einen Mann erschlagen, das ist nicht Ruhm, das ist nicht Ehre, denn beinsen wird's in späteren tagen gesiegt hat doch das Deutsch Heer. Podest nicht die Paten der Soldaten doner die da Sterben sollen, soll man geben was sie wollen, sahs sie Herzen, sahs sie Küssen, den sie wissen nicht wann sie sterben müssen"

  10. #20
    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    "Parts going east or south" makes no sense to me, parts went to the ordnance centers and were distributed, they could have gone anywhere in Germany or to depots in occupied territories, but there would be little pattern to their distribution. Parts didn't go anywhere based upon who inspected them. Most went to the east after 1940 because that was where the fighting was, so they often went went to ordnance staffs and Wehrkreis depots in the eastern areas that supported the fighting in the east. But, Wehrkreis HZa depots specialized, certain facilities handled specific items, - Polish arms, French or whatever, some specialized in tanks (Magdeburg) others armored vehicles, artillery, etc... rifles were done at most of the Wehrkreis though some made very few or none (apparently), the most numerous "builders" are those in the east, which isn't surprising considering the fighting in Russia. The only reasoning that suggests e/26 parts going east is that the most active depots building 98k's were in the east, but the e/26 part could have gone anywhere. e/77 parts mostly went to SDP, Steyr, from there they could have gone to the ordnance system, but I doubt many did, - SDP used most e/77 components in-house assembly at Steyr. Only their barrels are seen at the depots in number. (SDP did supply the KM with a lot of Radom parts that the KM built into G.29/40's, but that is an exception)

    Geco and FW probably didn't make small components, though both could have. FW made heavy machinery and a great many other things, - your rifles were made by machinery from FW, but probably not parts. Geco was a "Walmart" or at least a sporting goods company, they made a lot of stuff, including small arms (commercial) and ammo, though it is difficult to say what they made and what they simply put their name on. They could have made such parts (they were active in technical development also), but probably not these small parts.

    However, my earlier comments were regarding waffenamts, not necessarily related to these parts Clay is trying to track.

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