Third Party Press

1917 Simson with dustcover

flynaked

Repo Field Gear Collector
So here’s the rifle from my previous thread. I am still trying to decide if the stock crack is a big enough value hit to return it or if I am safe enough as is considering the relative scarcity. I’m north of 2k into this one and the seller is willing to refund some but not a lot.. It appears to be all matching, even the I’ll fitting HG. I have a feeling the HG was made with a blank of beech that wasn’t 100% dried yet and possibly the cause of the warpage. The dustcover is really cool and due to the design with a single guide rod functions far more smoothly than say a Type99, it’s also proofed and maker marked. The follower appears to have a numbering error with a flipped punch it’s 61 instead of 91.
 

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No way I could keep it myself, even if it’s rare. But, WW1 collectors don’t have as much to choose from and often overlook such issues. Probably never have another chance at a 17 Simson again. What would you have bid had you seen the crack? No way that is shipping damage, the seller had to have known about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
To me,
it does not look like the action cover was there since WWI ......
With the crack in the stock .....
North of 2k .....

I'd send it back.
Only my opinion.
Thanks
Wolfgang
 
You know my thoughts Clay...if its strictly a transient piece, and they won't satisfy you with some money back, I guess maybe send it back...

However if you are thinking of really having a nice Imperial collection, this would be a cornerstone. Condition, maker, and dust cover, crack not with standing would make this a keeper for me, if I was doing an Imperial collection.

As far as the crack, you, of all people, could work your magic on that if you wanted to. Or you can look over the plethora of 1917 matching Simson's with a dustcovers out there...hell, I think there were 4 or 5 at the last DACA show...:laugh:

Even with the crack I still think you did fine price wise considering what it is, and if you decided to part with it down the road, I am sure you would get all of your money back, and most likely a bit more.

And I am sure there are enough hard core Imperial collectors out there that you could get some good trade out of it.

I will be curious to see Paul's opinion...Mr. Simson himself!
 
The action cover and the rifle have not been married for long. (from what I can see on the photos)

How much for a very nice Simson 1917 with NO crack in the stock?
How much for a pitted action cover?

Together, is that north of 2k?
Well, I don't know about the US, but not over here.
Thanks
Wolfgang
 
Fully agreed on the action cover, I completely believe it to be a collector add on. Fortunately it wasn’t an auction setting, I bought it a few minutes after it was listed for sale.

I know what you’re saying Mike, surely a hard one to find. Decisions decisions..

To me,
it does not look like the action cover was there since WWI ......
With the crack in the stock .....
North of 2k .....
 
How much are the accessories worth on their own?

Original sling would be about 200ish? Original dustcover perhaps in the 500-700 range, give or take, from what Ive seen online?

If that’s reasonably accurate, that’s approaching a grand in accessories. Add that to whatever refund theyre offering (hopefully at least a few hundred?), Id think you’d be in the rifle itself for a bit north of 1000?

If that’s ballpark accurate, the question becomes: is an otherwise very nice, all matching 1917 Simson with a cracked stock worth a bit north of $1000?
 
This is the dilemma; upper grade Imperial rifles (with no evidence of republican or NS service) are damn difficult to find, most early war rifles were heavily used, often 1917 are the easiest, many never leaving the depots (no rifle shortage in 1918, but very few survived, most rifles the Germans kept ultimately were destroyed, well into the millions).

This rifle is VERY late, one of the last Simson's made, only a relative few were made in 1918 and they are hens teeth.. it is extremely unlikely you will find another in this condition. 10-15 years ago I would have kept it, when i was actively buying & selling, but I specialized in Imperial rifles at the time, - Clay doesn't really strike me as an Imperial collector? So I would probably advise letting go for a casual collector as there is no getting around that wrist for anyone but a specialist (as you can see from the comments so far, it will be a lingering issue on any resale...)

As for values, legit action covers are generally sold for between $250-500, seen them sell for less and higher than that range, but condition is everything. They bend, the warp, they pit, they rust, - though that price doesn't reflect current prices, but rather back when I was actively collecting, so 10 year or so ago. This rifle w/o a wrist crack is a $1500 rifle at least, probably more to the right buyer, but most collectors like to at least be able to shoot the rifle, whether they do or not, - and such issues will always be brought up at resale. That crack is a $500 crack imo, so the rig is probably worth about $1500, but I would still advise letting it go unless you really plan on going into Imperials and are thinking/looking into a maker type collection. In such a scenario this rifle will be fine, hard (next to impossible) to upgrade Simson's are a challenge to find. I have seen Simson's this late in upper grades, I suspect they were never issued, maybe fell to AEF at Coblenz(?), they took huge stores there after the armistice, but it is extremely hard to find an earlier Simson in anything but well used condition. Simson's generally went to the Saxon's and they used their rifles, - try finding a 1916 in this condition, can't be done imo.

Anyway, I think the seller might be able to get $1500-2000 for this rifle at an honest auction, but its no bargain, - Simson's are rare in this condition and most collectors know it... If Clay thinks there is a possibility he might go strong into Imperials I might keep it, try to get $500 back, but if thinks its a passing curiosity, he should return it or see if Jordan wants to take the stretch...

But, WW1 collectors don’t have as much to choose from and often overlook such issues. Probably never have another chance at a 17 Simson again.
 
Good analysis.

How much are the accessories worth on their own?

Original sling would be about 200ish? Original dustcover perhaps in the 500-700 range, give or take, from what Ive seen online?

If that’s reasonably accurate, that’s approaching a grand in accessories. Add that to whatever refund theyre offering (hopefully at least a few hundred?), Id think you’d be in the rifle itself for a bit north of 1000?

If that’s ballpark accurate, the question becomes: is an otherwise very nice, all matching 1917 Simson with a cracked stock worth a bit north of $1000?
 
For what it's worth I think it's a nice gun but I feel bad for Clay being this was his first all matching Gew98. The price he paid was no steal but it was a fair price in my opinion. But he was buying a rifle without problems or issues. So I believe the seller should refund a fair amount of money because something like that doesn't just slip through they should have looked at.
 
Oh Wow I am totally in love with that sling. Very nice Rifle. I am just a humble amateur here but I tend to agree with the opinions put forward. Really a dilemma as shooting it is an issue and even repaired there would be a narrow market to resell down the road. Sitting here thinking what I would do and arrived at the similar thought as many. You keep it but ask for a refund. But only if you are collecting the Imperials But.....well it's a tough decision. By the way I do also agree that the dust cover looks more of a recent addition. I popped the clip off on my 1916 Simson a while back and the marking on the wood gave a good indication of how long the cover had been on the rifle. (see Pics) Again very nice rifle and a tough decision.
 

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Wow that is a nice one! I knew looking at the pictures when I bought it that it was likely an add on item but man it would be to have one like that! Thanks for sharing that.

Paul, you certainly are right, I can count on my hands the amount of imperial arms I’ve had, so definitely causal! On the other hand I can’t even tell you what I collect, so if you can figure it out please let me know as I have been trying to for years! Haha. Boy this is a tough one, and the clock is ticking. Thanks for all the input guys, it surely helped.
 
imho, I'd get some refund $$$$ and keep it. Very clear proofs for beech, action cover is an add on & doesn't go well with it (sell it), sling isn't that great a shape & doesn't go well with it (sell it too). Get some CA glue , extra thin, for the crack.
 
I kept it fellas, I agree the cover doesn’t really match/obvious add on so it will probably go. All the input is much appreciated!
 

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