G/K forum 12/2006
12-14-2006, 10:01 AM #1
rwo
GK43 Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 16
rwos Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0) dot 1944 with rare front band- photos
I am very pleased with my new find, want to share some photos and get feedback on the front band. The rifle is all matching including stock and handguard.
Markings and features are exactly the same as the one in Bob in Ohio CD except the front band. Look forward to your replies Thanks Bob
Attached Thumbnails
rwo
View Public Profile
Send a private message to rwo
Quote this post in a PM to rwo
Find More Posts by rwo
12-14-2006, 10:13 AM #2
PSmiljanich
GK43 Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Greater DC area
Posts: 52
PSmiljanichs Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
It looks like a nice rifle. The front band looks original (I say this with caution), the fonts look good. It is interesting to see an early milled band welded. Maybe the band is an arsenal repair??
Good score though! The finish looks really nice.
ps: what are the markings next to the serial number on the barrel, it looks like scratches?
Last edited by PSmiljanich : 12-14-2006 at 10:15 AM. Reason: question
PSmiljanich
View Public Profile
Send a private message to PSmiljanich
Quote this post in a PM to PSmiljanich
Find More Posts by PSmiljanich
12-14-2006, 03:00 PM #3
Matt Wilson
GK43 Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 43
Matt Wilsons Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
I'll second that motion,
Never seen a welded milled band. Can some of youz guys who have handled the entire WW2 production of K98s sound off as to how unusual that feature is?
Best,
Matt
Matt Wilson
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Matt Wilson
Quote this post in a PM to Matt Wilson
Find More Posts by Matt Wilson
12-14-2006, 06:18 PM #4
mrfarb
Big Pimp
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 76
mrfarbs Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
I can say it is very odd. I have seen milled bands that are welded along the bottom, but not in the earlier H configuration. It does appear to be the original serial numbers as well- chalk up another one for the oddball section.....
__________________
Visit my website
www.latewar.com
mrfarb
View Public Profile
Send a private message to mrfarb
Quote this post in a PM to mrfarb
Visit mrfarb's homepage!
Find More Posts by mrfarb
12-14-2006, 06:49 PM #5
Gewehr455
New Collector
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9
Gewehr455s Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
I believe I had a conversation with Scott B. sometime back where he mentioned having a dot rifle with a similar type of front band. Maybe Scott will chime in.
Jim
Gewehr455
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Gewehr455
Quote this post in a PM to Gewehr455
Find More Posts by Gewehr455
12-14-2006, 10:50 PM #6
Haz-Boy
GK43 Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The AWESOME Northwest of the US
Posts: 20
Haz-Boys Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Serifs & numbers look good to me.
However, I'm not thee expert.
I've seen the welded H-band before. Was on an RC at a gun show a couple of years ago.
Now whether this was original or Russian-modified, i have no idea.
Nice rifle there rwo!!!!!
Take care....H-B
Haz-Boy
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Haz-Boy
Quote this post in a PM to Haz-Boy
Find More Posts by Haz-Boy
12-14-2006, 10:58 PM #7
Bill In Indiana
GK43 Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15
Bill In Indianas Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
135 Waffenampt?
Bill In Indiana
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Bill In Indiana
Quote this post in a PM to Bill In Indiana
Find More Posts by Bill In Indiana
12-14-2006, 11:40 PM #8
gunguy98
GK43 Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 36
gunguy98s Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Font's look good to me, but I'm no expert. Looks original to me, just another one of those odd ball things. very cool though.
Could they have been using a damaged or out of spec part that was salvaged?
gunguy98
View Public Profile
Send a private message to gunguy98
Quote this post in a PM to gunguy98
Find More Posts by gunguy98
12-15-2006, 07:32 AM #9
mrfarb
Big Pimp
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 76
mrfarbs Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
To me, a more interesting aspect is the use of the correct bayonet mount that is cut for an H band- at this point, dot was using mostly stamped bands with no cutouts, so where would this bayonet mount come from? I don't think it's renumbered, as the font for dot is very specific, and this looks aOK. Bill, the 135 waffenamt would be correct for a Mauser Oberndorf supplied part, but this one was made wayyyyy before 44 when this rifle was made. Perhaps a reject part? Who knows- dot used some pretty strange parts, such as S/42 marked sight springs (I have had more than 1 with one of those).
__________________
Visit my website
www.latewar.com
mrfarb
View Public Profile
Send a private message to mrfarb
Quote this post in a PM to mrfarb
Visit mrfarb's homepage!
Find More Posts by mrfarb
12-15-2006, 08:36 AM #10
Hambone
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a van down by the river.
Posts: 284
Hambones Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Interesting for sure. I reckon that's a part reclaimation from a cracked or improperly made band that was caught before being incorporated into a rifle and numbered?
12-15-2006, 08:55 AM #11
Scott B
New Collector
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 30
Scott Bs Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Jim,
While people with minds like mine are usually found riding the short bus - you my friend have a mind and memory like a steel trap!
I do indeed have a dot-43 in my collection, in as I recall the 'R' range. It has the same unique H-band configuration, which is numbered to match. I will try to post some photos to further the discussion.
Scott
Scott B
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Scott B
Quote this post in a PM to Scott B
Find More Posts by Scott B
12-15-2006, 05:34 PM #12
rwo
GK43 Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 16
rwos Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
What type of front band was used by dot on the Model 33/40? I do not have close up photos of this rifle, but it sure looks like an open H pattern. Could the bayo lug and band be left over Model 33/40 parts? Would it fit a K98 stock? Were 33/40 bands marked E/135?
rwo
View Public Profile
Send a private message to rwo
Quote this post in a PM to rwo
Find More Posts by rwo
12-15-2006, 06:33 PM #13
Hambone
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a van down by the river.
Posts: 284
Hambones Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Rwo, E/135 denotes a Mauser Oberndorf product. A G.33/40 band would not be so marked and they aren't interchangeable. I think it was a flubbed Oberndorf band that went into the flubbed parts bin only to be sent off to Brno for recycling into a usable part. It doesn't look like it ever bore a number, which is why it wasn't incorporated into a rifle. Certainly that weld down the center wasn't put there for kicks and giggles. It was likely cracked, thin, improperly machined, or otherwise whacked. Interesting observation re the bayonet lug w/H cutout.
Hambone
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Hambone
Quote this post in a PM to Hambone
Find More Posts by Hambone
12-15-2006, 10:57 PM #14
3371940
GK43 Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12
3371940s Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwo
What type of front band was used by dot on the Model 33/40? I do not have close up photos of this rifle, but it sure looks like an open H pattern. Could the bayo lug and band be left over Model 33/40 parts? Would it fit a K98 stock? Were 33/40 bands marked E/135?
rwo:
hambone is probably spot on as to the band on this rifle. For reference, this is a 33/40 front band:
3371940
View Public Profile
Send a private message to 3371940
Quote this post in a PM to 3371940
Find More Posts by 3371940
12-15-2006, 11:15 PM #15
mrfarb
Big Pimp
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 76
mrfarbs Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Easiest way to spot a G33/40 band, the band spring hole is on the wrong side (bands are similar to VZ24 bands).
__________________
Visit my website
www.latewar.com
mrfarb
View Public Profile
Send a private message to mrfarb
Quote this post in a PM to mrfarb
Visit mrfarb's homepage!
Find More Posts by mrfarb
12-15-2006, 11:43 PM #16
Hambone
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a van down by the river.
Posts: 284
Hambones Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
bingo, tks for the pic 337 and 'farb for something obvious that didn't even occur to me re the bandspring.
Hambone
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Hambone
Quote this post in a PM to Hambone
Find More Posts by Hambone
12-16-2006, 12:58 AM #17
Bill In Indiana
GK43 Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15
Bill In Indianas Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Been giving these bands a lot of thought....have a few ideas....
I am thinking these bands are an MO experimentation...rather than repaired bands. Possibly from an experimental "new" method of manufacture at a time when they were not looking to simplify the bands, but were rather looking to simplify production. Maybe the process was an experimentation in forming the bands from stamped flats (welded together) rather than bands formed from DOM tubing or some such similar process like would have been used early on.
Rather than rejects, or boogered up parts, I'm thinking these never went into full MO production for some reason, basically thinking they were rejected for the non adopted method of manufacture rather than being out of spec.
Makes sense that MO would save a servicable, but non standard group of parts rather than save bunches of individually different rejects. Thus some small but significant lot of these maybe were shelved at MO, early on.....when the full H bands were standard, and only later drug out and shipped to DOT when standards were relaxed, or maybe due to some DOT band production problems, or shortfalls in same.
This makes far more sense to me than thinking DOT/MO would take the time to diagnose/repair many different individual problems with each and every band.
Bill In Indiana
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Bill In Indiana
Quote this post in a PM to Bill In Indiana
Find More Posts by Bill In Indiana
12-16-2006, 01:18 AM #18
Hambone
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a van down by the river.
Posts: 284
Hambones Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
I don't know Bill. By this time (the rifle production) they would have been into speed milled, welded bottom, or stamped. I think the first thing to go in manufacturing would have been the H cuts to save time. We see that in the steady simplification of band manufacturing. Next is the weld on the bottom, then stamped. I can't discount that theory, any more than I can support mine. I just think at this point we see dot using milled parts after the other makers were using stamped, as if dot got alot of unused, excess, etc. If you have the band milled out and ready, except for maybe a crack or machining flaw on the bottom, is it cheaper and quicker to weld a bead across the bottom and incorporate it into a rifle, or scrap it and start over? Without more info I wouldn't bet alot of money against your theory or in favor of mine Bill.
Hambone
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Hambone
Quote this post in a PM to Hambone
Find More Posts by Hambone
12-16-2006, 11:34 AM #19
Scott B
New Collector
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 30
Scott Bs Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
I just posted some comparison photos in my gallery of my 2 DOT43's showing the unique welded E/135 H style front band.
I am undecided as to the 'whys' about this variation. It is counterintuitive that cutting the 'H' into the band would improve the integrity of the band nevermind efficiency of production. However, such a process would reduce steel material consumption. I am not aware of any examples of such a band on a '43 vintage MO 98k assembly and am uncertain of 'who' made the modification. Logical that it would occur at MO still......any possible connection to late G41M production and/or leftover parts? I am not very familiar with G41s. However, I understand that G41M production officially ceased by 12/42 but assembly may have continued until March '43. I also understand that G41M's had unique bayo lugs. Perhaps this band type was improved or prototype MO production intended for the G41M. Once production and assembly ceased MO sent some remaining parts to DOT?? The timeline seems about right. Just another goofy thought.
Scott
Scott B
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Scott B
Quote this post in a PM to Scott B
Find More Posts by Scott B
12-16-2006, 12:06 PM #20
Scott B
New Collector
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 30
Scott Bs Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Sorry I forgot the link to my pictures.
http://www.gk43forum.com/forum/vbpic...?do=view&g=103
12-16-2006, 02:06 PM #21
Hambone
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a van down by the river.
Posts: 284
Hambones Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Scott, that's good stuff and certainly confirms it as a dot variant. Now, we have the theories of why:
1) Reclaimed / recycled parts
2) byf prototypicals testing cost cutting methods
3) Used up parts left over from cancelled G.41M production
The latter I had not thought of but makes sense. The bands are the same I believe. By that point the H band was not used in MO production. This is good stuff, those dots are killer, great topic and info.!
Hambone
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Hambone
Quote this post in a PM to Hambone
Find More Posts by Hambone
12-16-2006, 05:23 PM #22
Bill In Indiana
GK43 Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15
Bill In Indianas Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Now the G41M thinking is interesting.....are they indeed identical?
Bill In Indiana
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Bill In Indiana
Quote this post in a PM to Bill In Indiana
Find More Posts by Bill In Indiana
12-16-2006, 10:08 PM #23
Hambone
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a van down by the river.
Posts: 284
Hambones Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
we oughta drag one of the G/K guys over here. Prus knows. I think they are. However, I think we are still left with where that bottom weld came from. Which leads me to the second head scratcher: If it was a "mistake" as I suggested, why would it seem to be more prevalent than isolated mistakes? Looking to Scott though you get an abnormal "sample size" as I've never owned a rifle with a welded bottom H band and to be honest, don't know that I've held one.
Hambone
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Hambone
Quote this post in a PM to Hambone
Find More Posts by Hambone
12-17-2006, 05:42 PM #24
Bill In Indiana
GK43 Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15
Bill In Indianas Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Ok....more thinking....if the G41M band is this band....then why would they invent a new way to build the G41M bands....why not just use standard 98k bands right off the production line?
Bill In Indiana
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Bill In Indiana
Quote this post in a PM to Bill In Indiana
Find More Posts by Bill In Indiana
Yesterday, 08:44 AM #25
mrfarb
Big Pimp
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 76
mrfarbs Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
I looked in my Hitlers Garands, and the one pic that showed the bottom of the band was a negative- it looked just like the standard 98k part.
I am closer to Bill on this one, thinking it was perhaps a non-standard part put aside by MO and not used- however, it has the waffenamt, so it was accepted at some point. You should be able to pull the band and look inside to see if it was cracked or made that way- if as manufactured, it will have an even line straight across-- if defective, it will either be cracked or solid all the way. My facination is still with the bayonet mount being the correct type, on both guns. What markings do the bayonet mount have? It would be interesting to know.....
__________________
Visit my website
www.latewar.com
mrfarb
View Public Profile
Send a private message to mrfarb
Quote this post in a PM to mrfarb
Visit mrfarb's homepage!
Find More Posts by mrfarb
Yesterday, 10:29 AM #26
Scott B
New Collector
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 30
Scott Bs Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
For me this is one of the most interesting discussions in a while.
'HG' mentions that K98k front bands were utiized in MO G41M assemblies but goes on to indicate that the M had a unique bayo lug. In any case a single example and comment is little evidence one way or the other. Regardless, I would like to get data from G41M collectors on the subject.
I just looked at the bayo lug on my dot43 with welded H-style band. The bayo lug is H-style and completely sanitary. Not a single marking.
Based upon the limited sample it appears that the subject H-style welded bands were completed by MO as those observed carry the E/135 proof. No evidence yet of a dot band modified or created in this fashion. I think this fact argues against the damage repair scenario.
As to the choices offered thus far to explain this bizarre phenom - a few questions/comments:
Reclaimed/Recycled - why would MO ship damaged front bands as opposed to just trashing them? Why would dot repair them? Was dot that short of bands? Why is this variation only found on MO proofed bands? If this was a standard dot fix for a machining error wouldnt this likely appear intermitently throughout dot production on their bands?
MO Prototype - for what???
G41M -Could it be that the unique bayo lug for the G41M required the H-style and that the welded variation was a potential improvement consistent with manufacturing standards at the time?
One last "what if" which would lead more to dot than MO. What if the bands shipped by MO didnt fit the standard bayo lug or a variant utilized by dot? The fix applied being a cut and weld to widen the interior of the MO bands. I have noticed some tolerance differences among manufacturers but never payed too much attention.
Just axing some questions and thinking out loud. My peanut brain is fixin to explode with all of these complexifying thoughts!
Scott
Scott B
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Scott B
Quote this post in a PM to Scott B
Find More Posts by Scott B
Yesterday, 12:17 PM #27
Hambone
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a van down by the river.
Posts: 284
Hambones Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
This is a good topic. My recycle theory is based upon MO's manner of production. That is, they kept the line moving and anything that didn't pass inspection or was defective got pulled off and put into stores. From source documents, MO did not correct and reintroduce failed parts immediately back into production. These defective parts accumulated. This system worked well for them and MO maintained consistent high quality and as we know, very high production numbers.
My theory is that MO had H bands that were perhaps improperly machined causing / or had cracks in that area making them weak or otherwise unacceptable. An H band would more than likely likely split in that spot if too small, out of tolerance or pounded onto a bayonet lug during assembly which bayonet lug may have been out of spec. This damage after the part was made but damaged during assembly would explain the inspection but no serial. Of course, parts were assembled, THEN serialled if they fit. On a production line there would have been more than a few of these made before the problem was corrected. A weld across the bottom would be stronger than the surrounding metal and a fix. It would be cheaper and quicker to simply do this than scrap the entire part and start over. MO would have dumped such parts on dot before putting them into their line (as they allegedly dumped out of spec but functional parts on the Chinese). Further, buy that time MO was using speed milled welded bottom and stamped upper bands.
Why not get rid of all of your H band lugs and defective H bands at one time? Let another maker without as much Mauser pride use these functional but ugly ex-defective parts. I can't support this theory with anything other than my rambling, but for the sake of this amicable debate I'll adopt and ride this horse
I like the G.41M lug theory. Who is the resident G.41 guru? Let's get him over here for comment.
Hambone
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Hambone
Quote this post in a PM to Hambone
Find More Posts by Hambone
Yesterday, 01:48 PM #28
rwo
GK43 Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 16
rwos Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Here are 2 photos of the band inside as viewed through a mirror and 2 of the bayo lug. The inside line was difficult to photo, I tried about everything, With the mirror and mag glass I could clearly see an even straight line, sure looks like it was made to be welded. No sn or any other marks on the bayo lug. The band slides over the lug smoothly, it fits perfectly. Band spring is the earlier machined style, not stamped. Thanks for all your comments. If you have other questions please ask. Bob
Attached Thumbnails
rwo
View Public Profile
Send a private message to rwo
Quote this post in a PM to rwo
Find More Posts by rwo
Yesterday, 07:12 PM #29
mrfarb
Big Pimp
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 76
mrfarbs Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Scott, you may have inadvertently hit the reason the "correct" lug was used with these bands, in that the standard uncut lug did not fit well with these h cut bands, thereby making it necessary to use the older style h cut lug (seems like such a hassle in a mass production situation though).
I don't believe that these are defective as Hambone does, but it's just as plausible. Remember, MO was the lead firm in experimenting with things- it's possible these were an experimental version of the H band, a quicker way to make them. After all, MO did start using welded closed bands on the 98k for a short time in 43 ish I think. The progression is: machined H, machined closed, welded closed, stamped/welded. Throw the welded H in there somewhere and you got it.
I want to throw one more possiblility- WHAT IF there were H bands that were made with a weld, just that the weld was ground down prior to being used on 98k's, and the reason you never see one. It's possible these were unfinished bands (or rejects as Hambone suggests) and were stored after the H cut bands were superceded, later to be sold off to "dot". Just a thought.
__________________
Visit my website
www.latewar.com
mrfarb
View Public Profile
Send a private message to mrfarb
Quote this post in a PM to mrfarb
Visit mrfarb's homepage!
Find More Posts by mrfarb
Yesterday, 07:22 PM #30
Hambone
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a van down by the river.
Posts: 284
Hambones Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
My only problem with the prototype theory is that the process of H cutting bands was likely the most time intensive (expensive) which is why it was the first thing to go. So why try to save time by welding the bottom closed, instead of one piece milling them, when you are going to lose all of that and then some in going back to an H cut? By the time welding shows up they had already given up the H cut to speed milled. It's all a logical progression to me as you've ID'd 'Farb, so why go back to more labor intensive machining (H cut) when you've already eliminated that step? Doesn't make sense to me. The straight break on the bottom inside of the band can be caused by stress breaking when fitting to a lug. In fact, it would be expected to break like that given the grain structure of steel, particularly a forging of that type. Is the theory that instead of giving up H cutting they decided to trying jumping straight to welding the bottom, even though that was the third iteration of band efficiency?
Today, 07:38 PM #31
Bill In Indiana
GK43 Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15
Bill In Indianas Gallery
GK Trader Feedback: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott B
For me this is one of the most interesting discussions in a while.... ....Regardless, I would like to get data from G41M collectors on the subject.
Yes....for sure.... I would like to compare these bands and bayo lugs with 41M parts....might shed some light on if they are leftover 41M parts....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott B
One last "what if" which would lead more to dot than MO. What if the bands shipped by MO didnt fit the standard bayo lug or a variant utilized by dot? The fix applied being a cut and weld to widen the interior of the MO bands. I have noticed some tolerance differences among manufacturers but never payed too much attention.
From the pics it looks like a tight straight line joint under the weld....this would eliminate the weld being a repair for a random split....and also as a repair for making the bands bigger to fit.
But it would not rule out making the band smaller.
