RG34 Parts Classification?

So I was bored this morning and decided to "classify" some of my kits that I consider "as built". In doing so, I referenced the (often visited) RG34 site http://rg34.blogspot.com.es/ by our member "dot". I realized that there really isn't any type of classification system as far as types of chains, spoons, and oilers. Does anyone actually have a classification system they use? I kinda ad hoc'd from his site using his pics to make my own. One thing I noticed, as with anything else there are sub types of each type just to make things more confusing, but don't consider them another type. For example, there are Type 2 chains with both zinc and steel barrels, other chains with mixed, etc. Also, for Type 3 oilers you have welded and plain types. When writing these things down I would just add a note to each one. Anyway, I've made notes on his photos to show what I did - these kits all start to run together after a while, so I just feel like they need some kind of order.

So Slash is working on a book, and "dot" indicates he is as well. Do you guys have some kind of system you use in your notes for this?

Have I gone insane? I feel like it.

To my recollection the late Hank Wichmann, in a article published in the Karabiner Collector's Network (KCN), was the first guy to put something in print. His article discussed the various manufacturers, components (and variations of same), of the RG34. Since that time much collector research and input has expanded upon the foundation Mr. Wichmann established. I do not think anyone has yet come up with specific identity names for the RG34 oiler, chain, or tool variants. My expectation is this would be addressed if any book on the RG34 was forthcoming. In doing so, it would provide us with appropriate terminology to identify and reference just about every variant component known today...

mrfarb said:

So Slash is working on a book, and "dot" indicates he is as well. Do you guys have some kind of system you use in your notes for this?

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Personally, with every kit I do a detailed file card with all the information, and respect to the designation of the diferent parts, I use a typifying denomination. For example, for the Hülsenkopftwischer I use the denomination of "standard" for the wrapped handle type tool, with the no pin and with pin sub variant, and "flat" type for the later manufactured tool. Also for the oilers, cans, brushes,...with their types and sub variants. With regard to the chains, it's a little more complex because I divide the chain between the patch loop head and the pulling chain thus creating a lot of type/variants. For example, the early type of head that many collectors define as "butterfly" chains, I denomine it as "double hook" head, the normal head with the closed eye as "standard", "folded wire" head the made from wire, "non rotating" the one that use the standard closed eye only, without the rotating base, and "0 shaped" head the very late chain made of wire (depicted on page 359 of Kriegsmodell book). Respect to the pulling chain, I use the material and form for to define, with many variants, for example "aluminum standard" for the pre and early war manufactured chains, "steel standard", "alloy standard", "alloy-steel" those with diferent materiel covers, "fine steel" as the standard chain made with fine cylindrical barrel covers, "kriegsmodell" chain the one made of folded wire without barrel covers,...

Antoni

Antoni:
The terms you use to designate the RG34 variations are quite similar to my own. For example on the chain "pull-through", I may refer to the various patterns as:
1. "First pattern"/"double hook".
2. "Standard pattern" (with alloy or steel beads) and having the "standard" swivel-link closed patch loop.
3. "Folded wire" (patch loop) I like to call "paper-clip" type loop -vs- the earlier "flat" or "stamped" patch loop (loose or non-rotating).
4. "Twisted wire" for late chain with or without beads and type of patch loop.

The tools are much harder to define. Those bearing a manufacturer marking and/or date can be referring to by the marking(s). Some tools do have a particular look to them. For example, Mundlos/"ab" tend to have a long, folded neck...kind of making the tool look like a boat oar, so I refer to that pattern as "oar-shaped". However, the unattributed tools (a number of which now seem to be of post- WW2 manufacture), are much harder to define. One almost has to refer to them by overall shape, early/mid-WW2/late production, folded/arched/flat stamping, standard or long detent pin (along with pressed or soldered to tool), etc. I would really like to see at least the unattributed tools classified into some logical arrangement if possible...

Pwcosol,
You are right, almost every manufacturer left a particular look on his manufactured tools and although unmarked, you can trace their origin.

With regard to the various types or patterns of the tools, from the point of view of a collector and without considering the markings, you can find these variants:

1. "First pattern", early tools with the wrapped handle and no pin.
2. "Modified first pattern", originally manufactured 1. tools with the pin added later.
3. "Standard pattern", tools with the wrapped handle and pin.
4. "Standard with long pin", as 3. but with the pin longer.
5. "Standard with simplified eye" as 3. but with the opening eye (for to fix the cleaning wicks) rough made and without grooves (some tools show very light grooves at the bottom).
6. "Flat pattern", simplified tools made without the wrapped handle.
7. "Flat with long pin", as 6. but with the pin longer. I suspect that these tools may be of post war manufacture as are very similar to the post war ones.

Antoni

Will approach this by specific component. First the oilers. I divide the metal oil bottles into four types with sub-variations of each. The third variation not shown in mrfarb's (Antoni's) annotated pic has a distinctly separate rolled body with indented compressed ridges at each end, standard spout and base (opens bottom only). Essentially any metal oil bottle which opens (disassembles) at the spout and base is what I characterize as a Type 1. There are multiple versions of the Type 1 oiler with sub-variations to include the style of knurling to the spout and base sections. Screw or rivet to the bottom of the base section. Slotted screw/bolt or lack thereof to the spout tip. Two or four holes at the base section. There are also variations as far as finish and machining as the war progressed. There are at least four sub-variations of the Type 2 which again include base screws and slotted spout tips or lack thereof in combinations. There is also a sub-variation of the Type 2 oil bottle with a distinctly recessed top portion of the body instead of finely machined flat (beneath the spout). A small number of the Type 2 with finely flat machined body tops are maker stamped cnx for G. Appel. There are at least two sub-variations of the Type 3 oiler. Most with a standard diameter spout while others have a quite noticeable "fat" spout. These oilers have riveted bases but again some spout tips are topped with a screw/bolt for disassembly while others are not. The Type 4 oil bottles are essentially divided into two sub-variations; standard body and welded body although there are variations in finish/blueing or lack thereof. All of the examples that I have observed are slotted spout tip and center riveted base.

There are also some sub-variations for the phenolic oilers. Especially in the internal maker and mold markings of parts as well as the material. As an example the mottled brown oil bottles often encountered with Mundlos (ab) kits are quite rough in appearance/finish and contain a high volume of wood chips and fiber. The Hawig phenolic oil bottles are typically of a uniformly smooth black material some even stamped with the cmr code. The phenolic material oil bottles have center base screws and slotted spout tip bolt/screws. Most are fitted with leather washers at the base portion to prevent oil leakage although some late examples have a rubber-like washer. Yes, I know the post-war oil bottles typically have a rubber washer but some of the original examples are of this construction as well.

First, in my modest opinion, we must differentiate what is considered a pattern or type and what is a secondary variation, and also when it is only the manufacturing differences of the different manufacturers. Maybe here, collectors, we have different visions.

As for the metal oilers, I classify them by their main types:

1."Standard" oiler. Machined oiler with both ends screwed.
2."Simplified" oiler". Machined oiler with only the bottom part screwed.
3."Stamped oiler". Oiler made from stamped parts.

With respect to the variations of these, it would include the different types of screws and tips, some manufacturing techniques,... thus creating their combination many variations and secondary variations. Respect to differences between manufacturers would include for example, the knurling style, presence of leather or rubber washers,...

I agree with Slash that there are two variations of the "Stamped oiler", with and without welding at the body (I exposed my theory about this at other post). I have seen at least one stamped oiler with the bottom inner piece longer, but need more research for to consider it another variation. Interesting to know differences between finish/bluing on these oilers.

With regard to the phenolic oilers I consider them of only one pattern or type, with a lot of variations depending of the different material used and the diverse manufacturer/assembler.

With regard to the rubber washer present in some milled and phenolic oilers, these are basically only from Gustav Appel manufacture/assembling.

Antoni

Excellent appraisals Slash & Dot. Since it is our understanding (expectation?) Slash will author the first authoritative study of the Rg34, his terminology will establish, for advanced collectors, the way to distinguish sub-variants of RG34 components. Use of the word "Type" is as good as any, to separate the major component variations. They can be further refined by incorporating a letter or adjective dedicated to a very specific example. I recall Hank W. referred to most of the components by type 1, type 2, etc. Finally we will have clarity when it comes to describing a component. Other authors have found their works were used to create a guide in helping to identify a particular artifact...such as the case with books by Watts & White, Kiesling, and Carter, in providing a point of reference for identification of bayonets and frogs. This sub-forum has proven to be a valuable resource for sharing information on the Rg34, and believe it will continue to be of benefit for any aspiring author or collector...

Now we need a photo showing the parts of the oiler with appropriate description.
Thanks

Good comments by all and nice to see the perhaps lowly (as seen by some) rg34 receive attention here. The late Hank Wichmann and his research has been mentioned in this thread a couple of times and he is a major contributor to my work. His son was generous enough to copy all of his father's files and research material related to the rg34 for me to build upon.

Some pics of what I classify as a Type 3 oil bottle. In my estimation the construction is unique enough to warrant the separate type designation. These oilers are somtimes encountered in late Braunschweigishe kits.

I agree with pwcosol that all the Rg34 topic needs an advanced reference work and a clear terminology for to distinguish all the variants that exist.

Several remarks about the "simplified" variant. I am the opinion that, these Type of oilers appeared at mid war and were manufactured by the Gustav Appel and Mundlos firms. In the case of Mundlos apeared in 1943 (ab43 kits) and in G.Appel kits (cnx) of mid war manufacture. All of these oilers observed by me show a relative fine manufacture, with the exeption of the end of the inner screw (at the bottom of the oiler) as many are without grinding. It seems that the manufacture of these oilers by both manufacturers ceased sometime in 1944.

With regard to the oilers that Slash tipify as Type 3, I agree with him that this Type of oilers are encountered in late Braunschweigishe kits (1944-45). I enclose several pictures of 2 examples of these oilers, note that the left one is very similar to the I defined as "simplified" but with the tip thicker. This type or variant of thicker tip seems to be manufactured in two pieces. The oiler at right shows the typically heavy crimping, for to fix in place the upper and bottom pieces of the body of the oiler. Personally, I have always seen this type as a later variation of the simplified oiler rougher made.

Antoni

mrfarb said:

So Slash is working on a book, and "dot" indicates he is as well.

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There is also a researcher/author in Germany working on a rg34 book.

dot said:

For example, the early type of head that many collectors define as "butterfly" chains, I denomine it as "double hook" head,

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From what I was able to find out, the official (?) designation for the "butterfly chain" was: chain with "Doppelstahlhaken".

I have some thoughts on these too, when I get a chance I'll post some photos of the few I have.

Amberg said:

From what I was able to find out, the official (?) designation for the "butterfly chain" was: chain with "Doppelstahlhaken".

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An extract of the Waffentafeln Wa15 of 1935.