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Thread: Erfurt 98AZ, 2 different unit markings. questions.

  1. #1
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    Default Erfurt 98AZ, 2 different unit markings. questions.

    I bought this rifle back in the late '80s, and have a couple of questions. (yeah, I know, why did I wait sooooooo long to ask?)
    The rifle matches, but some of the parts look like they were re-numbered from 56 to 66. The rear barrel band shows both sets of numbers.
    The stock appears to have been sanded, as the stock's bolt knob cut-out's edges are rounded. Yet all the other edges are very crisp and sharp on both the handguard as well as the main stock. the serial numbers on the stock look very crisp. (in spite of my crappy photo.) The face of the buttplate is number 5666.

    The rifle has two different unit's markings.
    One set is seen on the inside of the sling and matches the one on the buttplate tang.
    The other set is on the one of the bolt take-down butt disks. regarding the unit marks on the rifle.
    Who are these units?

    The other question revolves around the sling itself.
    It has an "H" buckle arrangement. Was this sling made for a 98AZ ?

    All comments and thoughts are welcome.
    Thanks for any assistance.

    Regards, Ned
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    Last edited by bayoned; 10-29-2018 at 06:56 PM.

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    More pics.
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    ax - hole Warrior1354's Avatar
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    I believe the unit marking on the butt plate is for a light munitions column attached to an infantry division. The unit marking on the stock disc I do not know. But you have a neat kar98a that was made at the tail end of World War 1 and then later saw post-war service.
    "Don't use your musket if you can kill 'em with your hatchet"

    Major Robert Rogers 1757 Founder of the U.S Army Rangers

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    EOD - bombs and bullets pzjgr's Avatar
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    Concur, very neat gun, and cool unit markings on it....

    Word of warning...don't use 98AZ, or feel the Lion's wrath! Seriously. its just kar 98a, no z....

    I find it super interesting that the sling appears to have the same unit mark as the butt plate tang...is that correct?

    The stock disc marking seems to be a named (M.W.?) Infantry Regiment? Would have to do some research on that if no one knows it right off...

    Great gun in any case!

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    I just realized I left off a couple of my "Kar 98a" photos. No Lion's wrath for me !
    And correct, both the sling and buttplate tang are marked " L.Mi.99 "
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    Last edited by bayoned; 10-30-2018 at 10:31 AM.

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    The "L.Mi" unit stamp is for Landjägerei (rural police) Minden.

    The "M.W./ J.R. 19" stamp most likely is the original WWI unit stamp.
    2nd Posensches Infanterie Regiment No. 19, Minenwerfer Kompanie.
    http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_19

    Whereas it might be another post WWI unit stamp from (Weimar period) Bavarian Infanterie Regiment 19, (13th) Minenwerfer Kompanie. The stamp scheme with the slash looks like Weimar period (Reichswehr), but it was already used in late WWI.
    I think the "M.W./ J.R. 19" stamp is from WWI.

    PS:
    BTW very nice and interesting rifle!
    Last edited by Amberg; 10-30-2018 at 11:30 AM.

  7. #7
    ax - hole Warrior1354's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amberg View Post
    The "L.Mi" unit stamp is for Landjägerei (rural police) Minden.

    The "M.W./ J.R. 19" stamp most likely is the original WWI unit stamp.
    2nd Posensches Infanterie Regiment No. 19, Minenwerfer Kompanie.
    http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_19

    Whereas it might be another post WWI unit stamp from (Weimar period) Bavarian Infanterie Regiment 19, (13th) Minenwerfer Kompanie. The stamp scheme with the slash looks like Weimar period (Reichswehr), but it was already used in late WWI.
    I think the "M.W./ J.R. 19" stamp is from WWI.

    PS:
    BTW very nice and interesting rifle!
    Thank you for providing those details Amberg. Looks like I need to keep studying unit markings more.
    "Don't use your musket if you can kill 'em with your hatchet"

    Major Robert Rogers 1757 Founder of the U.S Army Rangers

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    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    Obviously Amberg is correct, - very nice rifle too, I would like to ask for a right receiver shot for the acceptance pattern.

    I do tend to prefer accuracy when discussing nomenclatures or variations, it is more important when you are suppose to know better, or expect people to take your advice as credible (to me accuracy goes hand in hand with credibility). When an inexperienced collector comes along, I try to guide them to the accuracy path, but it only annoys me when someone dwells on perpetuating a bad habit...

    Regarding the sanding, this was very typical during reworks of Imperial rifles, we know this because Imperial markings are often weak or clearly sanded and interwar depot or associated markings are fresh or clear, this is more common with Reichsheer (Army) rifles as they passed through Army ordnance shops. Police this seems less common, but it is worth looking for some ordnance stamp that is clearer, say at the wrist, might be worth disassembling and looking at the barrel, often they passed through the police ordnance shops in Berlin, PTV or TP markings, but unless the stock has exterior interwar markings that are clear, a collector can only assume it (the sanding) was done after the war, but if a clear marking exists it might support the sanding was period done and then not being a distraction.
    Last edited by Loewe; 10-31-2018 at 01:50 PM.

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    Believe it or not, but I have never taken this Kar98a down before. If I do, I'll check for any PTV, etc marks. (I do have a PTV marked P.08, so I know what you're refering to)

    I have included two shots of the buttplate; one showing the serial, the other shows what appears to be a cancellation stamp.
    There are no stamps anywhere near the stock wrist. I have included a couple of better quality photos of the serial number on the keel.

    Regards, Ned
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  10. #10
    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    Well, I assume the leftside of the stock lacks a property stamp (generally if the receiver is property marked the stock will possess one also) and or any other stamp that might be an acceptance stamp? The wrist also? Sometimes these police 98a do carry army ordnance stamps, most typical placement is at the wrist, especially in the NS (nazi) era. I wouldn't discount entirely the sanding was period done, but a buyer would undoubtedly bring up the question

    Regarding removing the stock, that is often a serious hassle, especially if not done recently. I wouldn't bother with such a process unless you were comfortable as the benefits are not going to lead to a unquestionable result regardless of how the barrel is marked (most PTV/TP reworks aren't sanded so far as I have observed).

    Either way the rifle is pretty nice, too bad it was sanded, whether period or not I still prefer unsanded.

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