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Walther PP mag, wartime?

flynaked

Repo Field Gear Collector
Okay I give up, I can’t find a reference to this mag extension. It came on one of those late m/m unproofed Walther PP’s. I figured it might have been some kind of PPK extension that was simply swapped onto it? Or does this look like some kind of postwar item?
 

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Thanks Mike! Mystery solved. I have to wonder if it came back this way then, of course no way to know.
 
The magazine body itself is wartime. Wartime or earlier magazines will feature the Walther banner only or a slash in between mm. 7.65m/m= wartime, 7.65mm= postwar.
 
Good to know! I was fairly certain on the mag itself, but that is good information to know for looking in the future thank you!
 
Okay, I’ll add a little more to this. I’ve been studying the late PP ac pistols. I have 4 now.

This is a little rarer PP mag. It’s W marked (unhardened) and blued. Usually, the W mags are gray phosphate but some are also blued and seem to be a little harder to find. One of my ac PP’s has a blued W mag, two have the gray W mags and one has a regular wartime PP mag.

It is common that these later ac PP’s can come in all kinds of configurations with early parts installed in some, rejected late and early parts, red grips, cracked (yes, cracked and warped) weighted early rejected grips, dished out grips.....on and on. Some pistols proofed, a lot not, mismatched, etc.

These mags can also come like this. With other Walther gun’s grip bases, black and cracked rejected extended grip bases, plain flat blued floorplates, etc. So, yours is just one of those probably assembled by G.I.’s when they were at the Walther factory. This grip extension probably felt better in the G.I.’s hand than the flat floorplates that are normally installed. Who knows, but makes sense because it came with a mismatched PP ac pistol.

Here’s some more photos of mag extensions like yours:

2yo92l3.jpg


2mm5u6o.jpg


So, for what it is, it’s “late war correct”.
 
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Very interesting info Kelly, mine does indeed have a crack in the middle of the grip. Since you are trending these I’ll have to take some pictures of it.
 
Very interesting info Kelly, mine does indeed have a crack in the middle of the grip. Since you are trending these I’ll have to take some pictures of it.

Yes, that should be an earlier rejected grip panel and it’s probably warped too? Most won’t fit very well, but it’s absolutely right for these pistols. Sometimes you will even have a “dished out” typical wartime PP grip panel on one side and a rejected earlier cracked and warped weighted grip panel on the other side.
 
Here ya go, not the easiest to see in the pictures but they are indeed warped on both sides! Not sure if the holster came with “this” pistol but it’s 44 dated and purchased at the same place, but there were multiple PP’s so no way to know, they separated all the holsters from the pistols. :facepalm:
 

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Excellent! Yes, I personally believe that extended grip more than likely came like that. Not to mention how late your PP is. G.I. factory put together right at the end of it all. Probably the G.I. that wanted that one had big ole meat hook hands and needed extra to hold it. Just a guess, but it all fits in where weird things have been seen with these. Your pistol also looks to have an early blued high polish extractor? From the photos it looks like it anyway. If so, probably an early one laying around assembled with the gun.

Here’s some photos of my latest one that I bought not too long ago.

You can see the warpage of the weighted early rejected grips, warp cracks, etc. The grip extended base is also warped. The W mag is blued.

The extractor on mine is the typical gray phosphate color.

I would bet most would try to dicard these grips as damaged. And, they would certainly try to change out your mag floorplate as they just wouldn’t think that this could have been the way that may have actually came back.

Who knows on the holster you show as to whether or not it came with the gun originally. Doesn’t really matter as it is for the gun and it’s something that could have certainly came back with it.

These are so neat. Can’t wait to find the next one!

F38CBFA8-DBD2-45BF-911F-A31469CA3D42.jpgCA21CF79-B9AF-4C88-8828-C53BF343DF3A.jpg75954B56-A83E-4FA9-B067-AA15A4226016.jpgE20C9EA1-8EAF-4E26-9218-3EC707ABE301.jpgDA690C67-2611-4924-9A08-72D8BCE769A4.jpgD74CF838-C099-4EC3-A7C3-5393A995E947.jpg17FF8DFF-BD72-4ADF-8772-C106FF8F1468.jpg79AF2A78-F5AE-4247-BD48-E5B39DFF3E15.jpg
092107F7-C3FE-4534-A405-0A44C7C69AD8.jpg
 
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Looks awesome! Really nice example, I love the harder contrast of the more plum frame on that one. The extractor on mine is indeed fire blued but I wonder if it is simply a part that wasn’t yet phosphated? I would expect every extractor to have a blue appearance at some point in its production as it is simply an effect of the tempering process, somewhere around the 600* mark produces that color. I’m wondering if this isnt plausible given the fact that the extractor still shows a fair amount of surface irregularities as if it weren’t ground/polished to the extent of the earlier ones?
The note about the mag bottom got me curious, so I took a look at mine, and what do you know? It has multiple surface cracks, to me this lends further credence to it being a rejected part that sat around the factory until late in the war. Of course it could be cracked after the fact/ over time but the area it is cracked in is the thickest forward portion and almost looks like rapid cooling of the part after coming out of the mold too hot. The thicker a molded area is the more I could see a rapid cool down being the cause of the cracks, that plus it exhibits zero fluctuation when you try and squeeze it together. This is the same kind of issue with the weighted grips, I could see the differences in coefficient of expansion between the two materials causing the cracking.
Interesting to compare them! I’m sure it’s neat to look at 4 late examples in hand, let me know if you notice any other trends. I think I may know where one more late m/m example is locally too, now if only it had pressed wood grips, I would love to find one of those some day!
 

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“ ......but I wonder if it is simply a part that wasn’t yet phosphated?”

Interesting, but I don’t know how the phosphating process works. I know I’ve seen several examples of these late ac PP’s with the fire blue extractor just like yours. I thought a particular part would be bare metal and the put into a “phosphating tank”, but that was just my uneducated thinking.

The late ac PP’s all have standard things going about them. As they get later in serial number, things start getting weirder. The really neat ones are the slide stamped serial numbered ones where there is no frame serial number. Some super late ones are in the white with mixed blued and phosphate small parts with wood grips. It starts getting crazy as the serial numbers increase. I had a late ac PP mismatched pistol where the hammer drop wouldn’t work. I had another super late ac PP, in the white, where the ejector button wouldn’t allow the mag to be inserted. I had to push in on the ejector button and push up on the mag to get it in the gun. It would eject the mag just fine though. I found that the metal in the frame wasn’t drilled fully to allow the mag ejector switch to be fully seated, causing the button to be an obstruction. It would lock the mag in okay though and eject the mag just fine. But getting it into the gun there was the extra step that had to be done.

There’s actually a data base with these that have been kept and added to. Yours is not on it, so it hasn’t been reported. Check it out:

http://p38forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80059&d=1532025164

Also, good threads on these:

http://p38forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29314

Wood grip ones are neat too. I had a late PP ac mismatch that I bought pretty cheap with a set of wood grips. I turned around and sold it to get something else. I found the wood grips to be a really “thick grip” when holding the pistol. I was so used to the thin plastic type that I didn’t realize how thick they really felt until I got that pistol. Watch out on the wood grip type as some have had varnish applied to them. They should be that dried light color wood. Of course some are dirtier with age, but you’ll know what to look for and what you are seeing when you come up on one.

On your mag base; yes, that crack adds to the idea that it was a rejected part found and added to your mag.

A lot of people look at these cracked parts, parts that don’t work, etc. as a bad thing and don’t want them. Serious collectors that study these know what they are; not crap but actually what was going on and you are holding it. No telling how many real “messed up” guns have been ruined switching things around. Luckily you got ahold of that mag because it probably would have gotten switched aound with the “proper” mag floorplate.
 
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Here’s two that I have. Look how close they are in serial number; 15 numbers apart! I accidently found them at two different times, far away from each other. Number 383125p was found at Market Hall. Cheap too, with guys that collect and sell Colt handguns. You would know which vender I am talking about at the Market Hall show. They knew a little about it, but were selling it cheaper because it didn’t have any “eagle stamps” on it and “most people buying these want the eagle proof stamps”. I said, “okay” and bought it. I like them either way. Unproofed or proofed.

E7CAEF5E-55FC-45B4-94CE-C7F14E17B67F.jpgA574DB7F-C438-428C-9F80-02C7690118FA.jpg

*sorry, my pics aren’t the best.
 
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And, just to throw a little more into this, here’s a late Radom with manufacturing issues. It’s a neat matching pistol. Not many come with the red grips installed but usually are found with the dried light colored wood grips. Late e/623 Steyr assembled pistol. Crazy fat milled trigger guard. One problem; the slide hold open releases the slide once the mag is ejected and it won’t hold the slide back without the mag in the gun.

Now, most would say this is crap and pass it by. Okay, fair enough. I also don’t think it was issued out like this....BUT, I do think that the metal used to make these was such crap that this is the result. I have no idea if it was because the heat treat hardening process wasn’t right, making the metal softer and easy to break down or what. I do know these were subjected to sabotaging efforts and the forced laborers did weird things to these. And; or, this is just the result of crap metal that they were reduced to using and built them anyway with what they could get. But, it just tells the story as to what was going on and I have a tangible thing from there that I can show. That’s why I bought it....and it was a good looking un-jacked with phosphate Radom to add to the collection. Sorta kinda goes along with the cracked late ac PP grips in a way. Late war stuff...gotta love it!

29A97451-FDCD-4FAF-8E7B-8CE8A6747A99.jpgFD405A6C-13E9-4DA3-8962-CF96ACAB06ED.jpg9D9434F6-4905-43B4-B981-AFE7DF3817A9.jpg1691ADFF-473B-4C5F-AF40-D5BFB604FABF.jpg8B240A82-2A23-4A91-89F1-D2F12AE21A6C.jpg
 
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That is a killer Radom! I have to agree on the PP’s the late m/m ones, quality issues and all are very interesting. I haven’t seen any in the white yet that would be awesome! I’ll check out those links when I get a little more time.
As to the phosphate the surface prep matters little as it is dipped in phosphoric acid which will eat into the surface no matter the level of finish work. The “fire bluing” is actually a misnomer as it isn’t even bluing, it’s just the coloration that occurs around 550-600* so in effect is bare steel. The only reason it is often done in a solution is because it is easier to evenly heat the part when submerged in a constant temperature tank. The same effect can be achieved with a torch and a small container filled with dried sand or fine brass shavings for small parts. The sand/shavings act live a viscous “heat sink” that you can pack around your part to allow for more even heating, especially if the part is of odd shape/ varying mass, ie a screw. The screw head will take on heat differently than the thinner screw shank and make even coloration difficult. Long story short, they could simply be unfinished parts haha! I suppose there is no way to know for sure, but interesting minute details, but that’s what collecting is all about though isn’t it!?
 
Oh another note, about quality issues and what not. I can’t believe how smoothly the slide still racks on this late pistol! I wish I could say the same for 1945 Sauer38’s I’ve had but I can’t!
 

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