RKF / "Reichskriegsflag." 90x150 ? Repro?

Anyone seen one of these? I'm aware of the 60x90 fakes. I thought this one was one of those, and I may have had one at one time. This one is a 90x150, heavy, quality construction. Farb posted it up for me years back and if recall the results were mixed or generally that it was repro from the flag experts. I don't think anyone could point to another though, like the fake 60x90 "Delta Militaria" flags which were done in the 70s. They are all about. If it is a non-standard German size, then could it be something period made in the US, a pilot flag or something? Has anyone seen this repro? Back when I got it I remember on Sundays on show close there were guys rummaging through piles of German flags, like in a dirty clothes hamper, picking cheap flags and these were original. I suspect this may be a high end and very old repro, though perhaps period done as well?

Ham, I'll say up front I wouldn't know a fake from original and all of mine may be fake. That said, I would buy yours as original. If fake someone did a wonderful job.

Do originals say "Reichskreigsflag"? I don't remember seeing that.

What about the guy "oldflagswanted", could he help out on its originality?

That's what I thought too History. The German term is "Reichskriegsflagge" but this one looks appreviated with a ".", I.e., "Reichskriegsflag." and they do abbreviate it. Issues are no maker mark and nonstandard 90x150 size. It looks like the early pre-1939 type, and I guess it could be US made for a pilot flag, whatever, period done, or it could be an old very good repro. However, if a repro, like the Delta 60x90 fakes, where are they other than this one?

The material looks ok to me, and the thread. Don’t like the font on the size marking. Looks too simple and modern. I also don’t know about the stitching on the outside. Should be more rows?? BUT I really have super limited bordering on no experience. Lol I’d probably be fooled though if I found it offline somewhere.

My first though was it looks an awful lot like the WWI 60x90 fakes.

Construction seems well done, but then looking at where some the of edges are folded and sewn seems sloppy on closer inspection of some of the photos. It also lacks the normal rows of stitching.

Interesting flag, worth keeping the photos up to see if we encounter more of them at some point.

-Steve

Thanks Steve. I have never seen another. Those multiple rows of stitching on the end of the flag were normally for Kriegsmarine flags, so they wouldn't tatter. The Heer issued and used I don't know. I've looked for another flag like this. Never saw one and I don't recall anyone ever posting one. Farb posted it for me long ago for discussion and while the discussion was negative if I remember, it wasn't conclusive. Back when it turned up in the 80s the cheap thing at shows were German flags, originals. There were dealers at the shows with piles of them, like a week's worth of a large Nazi family's laundry, sorted through on the close of the show on Sunday for deals.

I'll keep an eye out for these and I'm interested to see who else comments, what we mostly find in Canada is the KM flags and the prices are better than in USA so that's the type I've always seen up here and I've never looked for them in USA. Andrew recently got a nice one from a shop in Toronto that's posted in a thread below this one, and it was a great deal. Yours just doesn't give me a 100% good feeling but I could be wrong, I will say the chain stitching is interesting and I'm not sure that is on any of the fake 60x90's.

-Steve

The ink markings on the flag a very well stuck, maybe too good. Here's a Navel Flag I pick out of the wood work last winter.

Thanks GF. If you're lucky, you get an original with a nice bold ink stamp. Many have them. I found this in my old PC photo file, a comparison of the 60x90 Delta fake flag font, "Reichskriegsfahne" and this flag, which has a difference size and is seriphed. Note the difference in construction from the repro, as well as the difference in the markings:

I'm far from an expert, but the font on the size marking concerns me, as does the number of stitching rows. All of mine seems to have many more.....

I am calling it a fake. With every flag I have seen,it was a cut down and then the placement of symbols would be off, the end would have multiple stitch rows.
This flag does not show as a cut down.
You should move on as plenty of good flags are out there that do not need constant excuses to justify.

tanker1 said:

I am calling it a fake. With every flag I have seen,it was a cut down and then the placement of symbols would be off, the end would have multiple stitch rows.
This flag does not show as a cut down.
You should move on as plenty of good flags are out there that do not need constant excuses to justify.

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What would this have been cut down from, a larger fake? We know about the 60x90 Delta fakes, there are multiples of those about, being sold on epay for $500. Where is the 90x150 fake? The cut down fakes you speak of are 50x85s cut down from the 60x90 fakes and remarked. However, you can't go the other way. What of the markings? I've not seen them on a fake either. Can you find another repro like this? I have not in 30 years of owning this. I picked it up when German flags were $150 or so, at the top end, as part of a bigger deal. I don't need to BS myself either way as for me this is just a discussion.

Of course, "original until proven fake" (for certain insiders) is definitely not the rule either. It's the opposite. The fact that it is non-standard size gives rise to the presumption that it is not German WW2 issue, which must be rebutted, not accepted. It is my obligation (if I was a proponent of it) to show that it is original. Someone proclaiming something "original" without explanation is at best as weak as someone proclaiming something "fake" without explanation. Fakes of things like flags are normally found in some numbers, i.e., more than one. But the fact that there are not more of these does not make it original. I think the multiple stitching rows of RKFs are the KM "wind resistant" versions. While this is probably not German issued, was it made by another country during wartime? I don't know. I'd like to simply have someone show the fake twin of this one for information purposes, which is more important to them than the originality (or not) of the flag.

I didn't say this one was a cut down, just a fake. I said that a cut down would exhibit wrong placement of the symbols, this one did not exhibit that but lacked the reinforced stitching consistent with a normal flag that size.
If you want it to be original and you like it, let it be.

tanker1 said:

I didn't say this one was a cut down, just a fake. I said that a cut down would exhibit wrong placement of the symbols, this one did not exhibit that but lacked the reinforced stitching consistent with a normal flag that size.
If you want it to be original and you like it, let it be.

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This isn't WAF, assertions need to be asserted or qualified as unsupported. Your assertion is that it is a fake because it lacks the reinforced stitching? That's helpful. You mean the five or so rows of stitching on the end that are consistent with that placed on flags used by the KM to keep them from flapping themselves to shreds while under way? What if it is not a KM flag? Honestly, for me this is theoretical exercise and quest to learn or discover, which no one does with simply a "fake" pronouncement or if it makes you feel good, believe that. As I've stated (and as people who know me well know) the originality or not of this flag or anything else is usually of no import to me. In fact, I would rather the flag be shown conclusively to be a fake than not know, because at least then we know something conclusive and learn something that is useful.

Craig
Just step it down a notch. Not everything has to be confrontation.
I stated my reason. Not every flag has to be Kriegsmarine to have the reinforced stitching If you think differently, then that is your right. Maybe it can't be proven either way.
Nothing more to add to the flag.

tanker1 said:

Craig
Just step it down a notch. Not everything has to be confrontation.
I stated my reason. Not every flag has to be Kriegsmarine to have the reinforced stitching If you think differently, then that is your right. Maybe it can't be proven either way.
Nothing more to add to the flag.

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It's not up any notches. We could all just make unsupported assertions and then believe what makes us feel good and leave it at that. I don't want those people performing neurosurgery on me, building the bridges I drive across, or even making my club sandwich. It's all good, I'm just asking for support for assertions. Driveby "it's a fake" is not helpful.

Never been into flags, and wouldn`t know my a$$ from my elbow with these. I have got a side libe project in the pipeline, because I think I have an idea how the micropscope could help with cloth, but you`d need a special one which I don`t have, and not sure I want to go down that road just yet, having way too much fun with awards and badges. Besides, I know what awaits if I do....

MJ, my rule or presumption with basically anything advertised as 3R, including flags, presume it some form of humpjob unless it proves otherwise to you. Your microscopic analysis fits well with such a "rule." This flag does not fit the accepted and observed construction norms, size norms, or marking norms for original RKFs. No stories or BS can change the physical properties of it. So then the question is, what is it and who made it? We know the 60x90 fakes were made / distributed by Delta. They are sold as original all the time:
http://www.od43.com/Reich_War_Flag_Pi.html

Tanker points out the additional stitching on the edge, but the well known Delta 60x90 fake has that. The construction and markings are different. The Delta 60x90 fake. Guys, be careful, these are being cut down to 85x50s and resewn.

Hambone said:

Your microscopic analysis fits well with such a "rule.".

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Well, if anyone was really interested, all you would need to start doing, would be a standard micro image of the weave, at say 40-50 depth magnification. Just like collectors post images of various "whatevers" to have a quick image comparison to work off of, a micro image of just the weave would be very helpful.
I do take micro images of this on ribbons and the like, cloth stuff, but that is more for me to use as background images in the movies, and not to study. Not really my field of interest (just yet), and what I meant with using the microscope, is not a surface inspection scope, I mean something very different, that would light up a fake instantly. I won`t say what I t is, because I may want to "open up shop" on this very subject myself in the future, but I am sure it would work.

In the meantime, a simple micro image would suffice, and be a good solid starting point to build on.

That's cool how the ribbon looks under magnification. What is the difference between an original and modern construction under magnification?