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Thread: 1910 Amberg Kar98a BS rework on a rework?

  1. #1
    Maple Syrup Mod Eh CanadianAR's Avatar
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    Default 1910 Amberg Kar98a BS rework on a rework?

    Picked this up recently. It appears to be a BS- Berlin-Spandu rework, made from a previous rework or a 1910 amberg that was ridden hard and put away wet. All the numbers match except front sight blade, although alot of crossed out or overstruck. The stock was used on three rifles. LOL. Its an odd one, Id llike to know more about it. Id have thought the receiver was too rough for reuse with the Germans but apparently not. BS intertwined is on the stock , and receiver. Stock has the 1920 mark but action does not, leading me to believe the second rework the stock was on was a 1920 gun, and this was done after? 32 on the receiver bottom and BJ32 on barrel, are they connected? There is some odd hard to make out number on the receiver rear bridge right side, why? And some sort of other mark after the SN, DK? Also i think the "3 k" on the buttplate is evidence left over from the first rework??

    When was this done and for who?

    full1.jpgrecv.jpgsto.jpgbb.jpgsi.jpgUntitled.jpg
    Looking for 10" cleaning rod, early style e/214 #91, nazi style e/26 #04

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    We recently talked about that "DK" stamp here:
    http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....-Police-Sniper

    Sorry, no idea what it is for.

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    I have my doubts about this intertwined "BS" stamp is for Berlin-Spandau ordnance, I think it is just as probable it is republican era paramilitary or frontier defense organization related. The number of such organizations is impressive and although I have not come across a match, I think it is more likely. One of my issues is many of these have their original barrels and often sport the "BS" on the barrel shoulder & or receiver/stock, - so why is this "BS" on both? Of course the same could be said for organizational related... Often these rifles have two or three "BS" markings, though often also only once (stock, receiver & or barrel shoulder).

    Bottom line, no one knows what this means, and I think the more formal "B.S" is more likely Berlin-Spandau ordnance, they are more often seen re-barreled, but not always... what is pretty sure is they (neither) are not police related. Too many G98's involved. Really the diversity of organizations and numerous episodes of crises or chaos means there are many possibilities.

    The DK marking is only seen on Kar.98a so far, found another recently and it makes four recorded so far. 1917 Erfurt 2631 mm, interestingly it has a intertwined "BS" on the RR. All so far are pretty much barreled receivers, except yours anyway.

    Regarding the BC and the repeated numerals under the receiver, it is not normal for factory application, so if it is related to the lot number of the BC (which is uncertain and doesn't make much sense) it was interwar applied.

    I would like to know if there are any markings at the wrist? On reflection, perhaps your rifle is the strongest case for intertwined "BS" being ordnance in nature? Most known are not this original, one could argue the "BS" in this case is a form of acceptance, one on the receiver and one on the stock, I suppose to accept the work done mating a new stock. (you are right in the property marking, in this case the stock probably was salvaged from a property marked rifle, - originally a property marked rifle would have the "1920" on receiver and stock)

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    Maple Syrup Mod Eh CanadianAR's Avatar
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    Most interesting Paul. Thank you. I’m not married to the Spandu connection just kind of thought it was the best guess. I think the 3 on the buttplate indicates that for a previous rework though?

    There are some marks at the wrist but I believe them to be from the first or second rifle. They are faint. I will get photos tomorrow. Anything else I could photo that would be helpful?
    Last edited by CanadianAR; 11-05-2018 at 07:02 PM.
    Looking for 10" cleaning rod, early style e/214 #91, nazi style e/26 #04

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    Maple Syrup Mod Eh CanadianAR's Avatar
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    Looking for 10" cleaning rod, early style e/214 #91, nazi style e/26 #04

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    Re-reading and some more time to reflect, we have to make a lot of assumptions regarding this mating. The stock has been mated to three rifles, two other prior to yours, the "BS" on the stock could have been a prior mating (and not connected to this receiver), 7349 was probably the first rifle. The barrel is factory original, obviously the intertwined BS on the RR represents its own connection to this mysterious "BS" relationship, but it is a stretch to make wide sweeping connections/observations on a rifle that has a stock connected to 3 rifle mating's.

    The wrist markings might be helpful in the sense it could date the last rework, if it was late, say after the mid-1920's, it should be more regimented, strictly organized to what we are more familiar with (Wehrkreis districts/ordnance shops), if it is earlier, closer to a more chaotic time (1918-1924, or pre-1927 anyway) it may just add confusion (hopefully the "last" visit can be identified by the wrist). The early republican period there only officially existed two ordnance shops, one at Berlin-Spandau and the other at Cassel/Kassel, these two HQ controlled the existing Reichsheer and had ordnance operations (both technically illegal), this is "probably" where the B.S. comes in, - looking over my trends and drafts (article projects) my thoughts were these "BS" markings could have been an early form of ordnance acceptance, the weakness in that theory is the Cassel/Kassel acceptance always followed a more formal/traditional pattern we are all familiar with and the question arises to why Berlin-Spandau didn't? Berlin-Spandau would have been the higher authority, one would think, and set the standards Cassel would follow... Perhaps, these early BS marking represent an earlier acceptance before the more formal standards were applied, perhaps before Cassel started inspecting or reworking rifles.

    With Cassel/Kassel it is easier to date the work by acceptance patterns, "Eagle/Cl" obviously dates to before 1926 when the city changed the name from Cassel to Kassel, then changing the ordnance acceptance to "Eagle/Ka" sometime after 1926, this process probably took time, probably a couple years after 1926. This intertwined "BS" may have been a very early form of acceptance, before more formal acceptance patterns were established, the latter "B.S." being part of the evolution, eventually changing to "E/Su" we are all more familiar with. Later both ordnance shops would add numerals, probably representing individual inspectors or shops.

    One thing is for sure, all this is guessing, mostly based upon existing trends and everyone knows the rarest rifles 1914-1945 are period original matching republican era rifles, and even among those that exist they fall into the same category as yours. They have been through several repairs or inspections and it is difficult to connect parts to these visits or periods. Worse, of the three eras that divide modern German military history (Imperial, republican, national socialist) the least written about is the republican era, especially in regards to its military structure. Most books that tackle the subject in English focus upon the military's role meddling in politics and the extent this led to national socialism (which is a stretch, - many of the authors are social democrats, sometimes former communists, and are hardly objective in their analysis, forgetting that the communists were the ones who refused to work with the social democrats/SPD against Hitler, and even voted with the nazis against the SPD, not to mention joined the nazis in riots to topple the government... nazis and communists are Kane & Abel of ideologies, ideological brothers that tried to kill one another for the god of power. )

    *** BTW, this is the highest Amberg/1910 known, not a large jump, about 100 rifles, interestingly, the one it replaced as high was 6219/a

    Also, I am moving this to the interwar forum due to its important connection to interwar reworks..

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    Thanks, I had hoped for a more formal ordnance inspection, assuming the last visit to an ordnance shop was in the 1930's, which are almost always marked at the wrist, (E/Su etc..), even though faint, you can still see the original Imperial inspectors, so that rules out a subsequent inspection marked at the wrist. And most NS ("nazi") era work was marked at the wrist. A bit of a mind twister trying to unravel this interesting rifle, hard to believe this stock has been mated to 3 rifles and the only likely inspection is this intertwined "BS" markings. In my mind, at least for now (like everyone who tries to be objective, my opinion can and often does evolve...) your rifle seems to support the theory intertwined "BS" is some form of ordnance inspection. Seeing as I have been unable to connect "BS" to a paramilitary group name or militia type formation, this rifle strengthens the argument that BS=Berlin-Spandau.

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    Maple Syrup Mod Eh CanadianAR's Avatar
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    Yeah I wasnít sure what forum was best.

    I will look it over again for any other markings. Glad you found it interesting. I hope in time it may get figured out. I was hoping the 3 on the buttplate had some meaning, but as youíd said, itís tough to say when it was applied. Thanks for all the info!

    Thatís funny regarding the previous high SN. The other kar98 I picked up also ended in 19.
    Looking for 10" cleaning rod, early style e/214 #91, nazi style e/26 #04

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    3=Spandau
    K=first letter of last name of armorer.

    However none of this probably relates to the rifles status, the 3/k is an Imperial era collection center's acceptance. This stock has had one or two further reworks after this markings application.

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    Maple Syrup Mod Eh CanadianAR's Avatar
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    Right. An earlier rework. Still kinda neat to see it. Kind of shows you where itís been.
    Looking for 10" cleaning rod, early style e/214 #91, nazi style e/26 #04

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