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Kar98a markings question

Mauserbnz

Junior Member
I purchased a 1915 double-dated Erfurt Kar98a a while back and was wondering about a few markings that are on the rifle. The stock, inside buttplate, rear sight mount and trigger guard are all marked with the number "43". Any idea what this number means?

There's also the numbers "5..44." stamped on the buttplate tang. Is this a unit/police mark? It seems like all of the other Kar98a's that I've seen pictures of also have letters in addition to numbers stamped on the tang.

This rifle is mostly numbers matching except for the handguard, front and rear bands, and a some of the bolt parts (the bolt itself matches). The stock has been sanded unfortunately, but the hardware is in pretty good shape with most of the bluing still there. It has an "8mm" import stamp on the left side of the barrel, so I'm guessing this was an early import.
 

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To give an analysis of any reworked rifle, you really must have as many pictures as possible of all "matching" parts. Just speculation, but these "43" are probably related to a rework, although this type of identification is sometimes seen with German manufacture (DWM), it is more common at ordnance shops, seemingly to keep parts to a project together, perhaps some form of pre-fitting accountability, before new serials are applied. Hard to say, but this is also seen on foreign ordnance work and this could be a Spanish import, though so far you show nothing to support this observation (other then the non-German 98a handguard).

Are there any markings on the stock, looks sanded, so possibly the markings are obliterated. What is for sure is this is not the factory stock, possibly a German addition, but if so it should also carry the "1920" property stamp on the left buttstock. Could be sanded or if no evidence then this is probably a latter addition, possibly Spanish in origin.

But again, these few pictures do not provide enough information to be confident in an analysis. Do pictures of "any" stock markings? Do pictures of the barrel markings? The Rear sight components?
 
Thank you Loewe,

There is a very faint "1920" stamp still remaining on the left side buttstock. The only other mark on the stock that is still legible is the "B" on the right side of the buttstock. Every other marking was sanded off unfortunately.

I've added photos of the stock markings and all of the matching numbered parts here - https://flic.kr/s/aHsmvDXPGU. The barrel photo isn't that good, but it's the only one that I can provide at the moment. There is a marking "O.S. 3128" below the regular serial number stamp on the barrel that's hard to see due to the shadow.
 
Very interesting! The barrel code steel maker is not known for any other maker than Amberg. This is the first non-Amberg made rifle using this steel provider. Too bad the pictures are not better, but it looks like there is a slight difference in suffix style and that makes me wonder if this might be a salvaged barrel used to re-barrel this receiver. Is there signs of another maker, a different style fireproof or another serial somewhere on the barrel, possibly rotated below the stock? A look at the acceptance could distinguish the actual finisher of the barrel, link it to Erfurt anyway, but as you correctly point out the barrel shot isn't too good. I can see the BC as you describe it though, which is good.

The Germans stopped making most 98a parts shortly after WWI ended, early 1920's anyway, so salvaging of 98a components is fairly common. So far as I can tell only handguards and muzzle covers, or at least lids for them, are really made in numbers for the 98a. Slings too of course. Its a pretty sure bet barrels were not new made, though I suspect the police ordnance shops did do some barrel work, probably leftover barrel blanks or ordnance spares. The PTV jobs often have "S28" like markings on their barrels, certainly not Imperial style markings, so they did do the closest thing to making barrels work.
 
There's also the numbers "5..44." stamped on the buttplate tang. Is this a unit/police mark?


If i had to bet i would say that to me it looks like an (incomplete) wartime german unit marking.
5 is the company number and 44 the individual rifle number in this company. Weimar police markings look different and just like imperial peace time unit markings they always used a combination of letters and numbers.
Only during the great war some regimental gunsmiths used the shortened version of unit markings and marked only the company and weapon number.
But this cant tell you anything abut the rifle itself. Maybe the buttplate was later added or stamped before the rifle was put together/reworked...

I will add a picture of my S84/98 new pattern bayonet, marked 1915 and with a similar style unit marking: 4. 318

With kind regards

Vincent
 

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Only during the great war some regimental gunsmiths used the shortened version of unit markings and marked only the company and weapon number.

Sorry, but I do not agree.
The Vorläufige Reichswehr used the same type of stamp right after WWI, before the new stamping order was introduced in 1924.
 
Very interesting! The barrel code steel maker is not known for any other maker than Amberg. This is the first non-Amberg made rifle using this steel provider. Too bad the pictures are not better, but it looks like there is a slight difference in suffix style and that makes me wonder if this might be a salvaged barrel used to re-barrel this receiver. Is there signs of another maker, a different style fireproof or another serial somewhere on the barrel, possibly rotated below the stock? A look at the acceptance could distinguish the actual finisher of the barrel, link it to Erfurt anyway, but as you correctly point out the barrel shot isn't too good. I can see the BC as you describe it though, which is good.

The Germans stopped making most 98a parts shortly after WWI ended, early 1920's anyway, so salvaging of 98a components is fairly common. So far as I can tell only handguards and muzzle covers, or at least lids for them, are really made in numbers for the 98a. Slings too of course. Its a pretty sure bet barrels were not new made, though I suspect the police ordnance shops did do some barrel work, probably leftover barrel blanks or ordnance spares. The PTV jobs often have "S28" like markings on their barrels, certainly not Imperial style markings, so they did do the closest thing to making barrels work.

I took a few better quality photos today of the barrel removed from the stock and posted them here - https://flic.kr/s/aHsmvDXPGU . I photographed any marking that was present on the barrel. There is some rust pitting on areas of the barrel, but I don't think that they're obscuring any other stamps. Btw, I was off by one digit on the stamp number (should be OS. 3129). I was going off the poor photo where the last digit was hard to make out.

I appreciate everyone's input. These rifles are pretty interesting, especially the more I learn about them.
 
Sorry, but I do not agree.
The Vorläufige Reichswehr used the same type of stamp right after WWI, before the new stamping order was introduced in 1924.

You are right. I completely forgot about this version!

I have to look it up again but didn't they ordered their gunsmith to stamp these temporary unit markings on different places on the weapons so the later "real" unit markings could be placed on their regular spots without having to cancel out the old temporary unit markings?
 
Very helpful, the new pictures reveal that the barrel is Bavarian. Note the Bavarian Lion fireproof and acceptance. It gets a bit more complicated to tell whether this is a salvaged barrel used to re-barrel this rifle or whether Amberg did the work. Amberg is known to have done some reworks and repairs (Danzig as well), typically apparently salvages (built rifles around other makers receivers).

I am tempted to be reserved in my analysis, however, because there are a few similar cases where the available information is clearer, I think I can be a little cavalier in my speculation. One rifle in particular comes to mind, owned by Wolfgang (Amberg), a DWM/05 clearly built by Amberg in late 1917 or more likely 1918. The key I think is acceptance. Making some assumptions and going by trends based primarily on known acceptance patterns, I would say there is a very good chance this re-barrel was done by Amberg late in the war. Less certainty exists because the stock can't tell us anything, in Wolfgang's case the facts are far more clear, but here there is enough similarities to go with the same conclusion.

This rifle is a little more odd in that it is a Kar.98a and not a G98, but Amberg was more than capable of doing any work necessary:

1. Amberg made the 98a 1909-1911, the acceptance on the barrel is not very clear, I really hoped it would be much clearer for a absolute match, but what is clear is it is not one of the three known acceptance stamps from that pre-war period. Further the Lion FP is inconsistent with pre-war Amberg 98a production. Only weakness on the barrel is the "OS" code is so far only seen on wartime barrels (but Imperial BC research is not as thorough as 98k), so less likely this is a leftover 1909-1911 Amberg barrel.
2. The FP and acceptance, in comparisons to 1917-1918 Amberg G98 production does have enough similarities to match. So far as trends go, the only possible match imo.
3. The few cases of Amberg wartime salvages do seem to date to this period, mostly later war, typically with C/A acceptance and these acceptance stamps look to me most closely resembling partial crown/A acceptance in Bavarian style. The FP style also fits well with this range of Amberg production. So to the suffix lower case "L" is proper for Amberg/17 style, - though obviously Amberg simply repeated the suffix on the receiver and did not serial the carbine in any meaningful way related to its own production.
4. In known Amberg builds or reworks of other makers receivers (typically salvages), Amberg typically does not apply its FP to the receiver, only to the barrel like this. (Danzig does FP the receiver), so this is consistent.
5. It is next to impossible for any other scenario to be likely. For if this was German done the fireproof would be Prussian or obviously republican, - any further German tampering would have gained another FP (probably on the receiver) beyond this Bavarian barrel, which is clearly Bavarian due to the FP and barrel code. Further the serialing of the barrel best matches Amberg with its distinctive numeric font style.

It would be much more assured if the stock was clearly marked with Amberg's acceptance, but perhaps this may have been because they didn't have a 98a stock left to use. Typically Amberg did not re-cypher or acceptance the side of the stocks like "new" production. Only the wrist and lower matches in these cases because Amberg provided the stocks.

Anyway, a great deal of "guessing and prejudice" in my "history", but I would put my conjecture more in line with reality than what passes for "science" in climate change alarmist theories...

I photographed any marking that was present on the barrel. There is some rust pitting on areas of the barrel, but I don't think that they're obscuring any other stamps.
 
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Pretty interesting stuff. I didn't realize that the barrel/receiver configuration was so unusual. It's too bad that the stock wasn't left in it's original condition, but I guess back then people didn't give a second thought regarding altering the markings on these rifles and erasing their history.

It's great that I have a better understanding regarding the history of this particular rifle now. I appreciate all the feedback and I'm glad I came here to ask about it.
 

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