EM 24 conversion unit Weimar navy property marked N.167

Here is a EM 24 .22 caliber conversion unit (sans tool, box) that was accepted as Weimar Navy property and marked with a matching Nordsee property number N.167,
Mag and floorplate with E/280 proofs only, no serial or navy stamps; chamber area of barrel with N.167 and M/anchor ; locking area marked “67”; “receiver ” #5633, marked N.Nr167 with WaA51 proof and “ M/anchor” proof on bottom of bolt handle. 722 is assembly number of bolt.

N167 .22 conv unit has a 1937 dated floorplate , yet its Nordsee number is in a range similar to three published luger conversion units (N.101, N.130, N.256) probably dating from earlier 1930s. Also barrel/bolt was marked as Weimar navy property (Crown/Anchor), and this stamp is not seen on navy lugers after 1935 production. Interesting anomalies or reassembly/put together?
B Regds, John

Kriegsmarine E.L.24 m.M.

Hello John,

I wouldn't say it's a anomaly, I think your E.L.24 m.M. was originally put as E.L.24 (single shot version) in Reichsmarine (Weimar Navy) service in the early 30's, therefore it has the M/anchor marking. In June 1935 the Reichsmarine was renamed Kriegsmarine, they stopped to use the Reichsmarine markings M/anchor and M/eagle. You are right, this marking is not seen as example on Navy Lugers after 1935 production. In 1937 or a bit later the Navy modified your single shot conversion unit to the E.L.24 m.M. (conversion unit with magazine). I would call the Nordsee N.167 a Kriegsmarine property marking, not Reichsmarine. The N.167 property marking on your conversion unit was certainly applied in mid 1935 and the property marking on the floorplate/magazine was applied in 1937 or a bit later, please note the different fonts.

In my opinion the Navy started in general to use the Nordsee and Ostsee property markings with the reorganize from the Reichsmarine to the Kriegsmarine, not earlier.

Regards,
Stephan

Thank you Stephan, a reworked single shot unit sounds like the best way to explain these disparate production dates found on a matched N167 unit. I had not been able to find any examples of an EL 24 single shot conversion to EL24 mM. Could the somewhat unusual WaA 51 represent the proof for this conversion work?
B Regds, John

You are very welcome John!

The WaA51 isn't so unusual, I have seen it already on some older Reichswehr E.L.24 conversion units and I think it was the responsible inspector (with his team) at the time when the conversion unit was produced. I know modified units which have a Su marking which represent the conversion work at the Spandau arsenal. Maybe there is a similar marking hidden somewhere on your unit, but I think a Kriegsmarine arsenal did the work.

Regards,
Stephan

Many thanks again Stephan,
Cannot find anything like a Spandau mark on that unit and your kriegsmarine arsenal rework sounds reasonable. In reference to the time of the early Nordsee N. number applications, Still (Pistols of Germany….vol5,p 204) suggests Reichmarine used N numbers on P08 until N.993 with some of these earlier N numbers associated with the M/Anchor, as seen with my P08, N.227, N.394, N.488 on rear grip strap

B Regds, John

John, I assume your P08 are manufactured by DWM, maybe in the "s" block, or "t" block. Is my assumption correct?

The lowest Kriegsmarine Nordsee and Ostsee property numbers are mostly older pistols like WW1 reworks, P08 by DWM and even Mauser C96, nearly all of them still have their Reichsmarine M/Anchor marking.

With pistol N.993 (the one you have mentioned) start from my observations the first big batch with S/42 G from the manufacturing year 1935 at the Nordsee fleet and they have the M/Eagle marking. Nevertheless some of the higher Nordsee property numbers are manufactured by DWM and they have the M/Anchor marking, as example N.1193 and N.1342. I assume these pistols were already at service in the troops, maybe aboard a ship, when the Kriegsmarine weapon and equipment supervisor started to mark the pistols which was in the warehouse. When the ship came back to the port, the weapon and equipment supervisor started to mark these pistols with the next available Nordsee numbers.

The first M/Eagle marking which I know on a Nordsee P08 is N.893, a S/42 G. The last M/Eagle marking which I know on a Nordsee pistol is N.1561, a DWM manufactured in 1917 with “1920” Reichswehr property marking.

The first M/Eagle (Weimar style) marking which I know on a Ostsee P08 is O.1093 and the last M/Eagle (Weimar style) marking which I know on a Ostsee P08 is O.2081, it's a S/42 G.

From my observations the Ostsee and Nordsee fleet had their own naval property number range. As example P08 O.2940 (a S/42 1937) and N.2940 (a S/42 1938).

The Ostsee and Nordsee fleet had even their own naval property number range for the various handguns. As example N.58 (a DWM Luger manufactured in 1917) and N.58 (a Mauser C96).
Another example is N.3289 (a P08 S/42 1938) and N.3289 (Mauser Model 1934).

Regards,
Stephan

Very nice EL-24... BILL

Yes, Stephan you are correct, those Nordsee numbered P08 were all “s” block from the so called 1929 DWM production. I really enjoyed your discussion, thank you.
For those that share my enthusiasm for this navy stuff, I show the next KM marking Eagle/M with N1046 on G date (3747d) marked shortly after Stephan’s N993 G date (3697d).
Thank You Bill
B Regds, John

You are very welcome John and I enjoy the discussion too. There is really a Kriegsmarine cluster in the "s" block 1929 DWM production. Thank you very much for the photo of N1046, this one I see the first time and with the Eagle/M it fits good into the group of the other G-Date. By the way, with the G-Date N993 (3697d) you have transposed numbers, the correct serial number is 3679d.

The first Eagle/M (Weimar style) marking which I know on a Ostsee Luger is O.1093 and the last Eagle/M (Weimar style) marking which I know on a Ostsee Luger is O.2081, it's a S/42 G. Maybe there is a collector term which I don't know, I call it Weimar style, only the Ostsee Luger have it:

The first Eagle/M marking which I know on a Nordsee Luger is N.893, a S/42 G. The last Eagle/M marking which I know on a Nordsee pistol is N.1561, a DWM manufactured in 1917 with “1920” Reichswehr property marking. Only the Nordsee Luger have this style of eagle, like your N1046:
The Nordsee Mauser C96 which I know have the same style of Eagle/M, as example N9 and N100.



The early Nordsee Mauser pocket pistols have the Anchor/M, the first pistol which I know with Eagle/M (in the same style like the Nordsee Eagle/M) is N318 and the last one is N1031. Later the eagle got changed, the first pistol which I know is N1162 and the last one is pistol N7820:


The Ostsee Mauser pocket pistols have the Eagle/M (Weimar style like the Ostsee Luger), the first example which I know is O.788 and the last one is O.2071. Later the eagle got changed like on Nordsee pistols, the first pistol which I know is O.2268 and the last one is pistol O.5216:


Usually it's in this way at least from my observations, but I know two pistols that deviate from this rule. The Mauser 1934 N8337 has the later Ostsee Eagle/M and the Mauser 1934 O.3651 has the later Nordsee Eagle/M.


Another pistol is very interesting, there is a early S/42 G with the Nordsee property number N99, usually this weapon doesn't fit in this Nordsee property number range. We could assume that this weapon from later production has perhaps replaced a lost weapon and therefore it has such a low Nordsee property number. But I think that isn't the case because this G-Date doesn't have a Eagle/M, it has a Anchor/M marking.

Regards,
Stephan

Wonderful display of navy eagles Stephan, very informative.
Thank you very much
B Regds, John