bnz 44

As nowhere near as well versed as I should be, but having 3 BNZ's, bolt numbers strike me as not quite right, just my two cents, I will sit back and learn......

waffenmeister said:

Not my first bad call Mr Farb and probably not my last. But I still like the hood. LOL

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Fair enough, I’m not perfect either so I was making sure I didn’t miss something. I have one more thing to post about it but I have to dig something out from the back of the safe.


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Mr. Farb,

please check the WaA 623 on these pictures. Is it original or fake?

I have spent a fair amount of time staring at SS contract rifles in the numerous threads here, as well as “normal” Steyr rifles and I agree that the bolt is bad. I also don’t like the numbered sear. Agreed that the bolt is likely renumbered Czech.

I also fear that humpers are running their projects through our collective sights to help perfect their craft. This one is fairly good, and no doubt started out as a non-matching example that someone felt the need to improve.

HUMPERS: save yourself the time and trouble and just sell the rifles “as is” and please stop ruining parts!!


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Without reading the opinions my initial gut instinct on the bolt is consistent with and as stated by those whose opinions I would seek on this issue. I haven't gone back and looked at anything else really, but my instincts are not positive about the rifle. There are die stamps made for many markings.

https://www.waffenamt-shop.com/en/

https://www.waffenamt-shop.com/en/s...-period-to-1945-/807-stempel-waa-135-k98.html

futhark44 said:

Mr. Farb,

please check the WaA 623 on these pictures. Is it original or fake?

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The waffenamts are original - BUT, these parts marked in this manner are from 41-42 at best. It's probably that either these were unmarked armorers spares that were numbered, or someone found parts from a bnz41 or bnz42 with the last 2 digits "98". You don't find these parts marked 623 in this range, and I don't think you find sears with 2 e/623 past 41 or early 42.

heavy_mech said:

Yeah good stuff. V7 huh? Nice milled FP! What's the acceptance on that please?

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I don’t see a “circle V7” on this rifle but I DO see a partial strike of the less common “circle A5.” We would need photos of virtually every surface of the receiver to look for more of either marking.


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M1903A3 said:

I also fear that humpers are running their projects through our collective sights to help perfect their craft.

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I've had that concern for quite a while too. I have a few more things to add but for the moment at least I'll wait.

So this kind of dropped off the radar pretty quick. I still have a few questions/concerns about what is real and the origins of said rifle. If any of the knowledgeable guys would like to take this to PM I've got a few questions/thoughts. Please think about it. Thanks

flynaked said:

The 6 font is off more than the rest, whoever did this was a lot better with the fonts themselves rather than the typical hump jobs we see over here, they obviously had knowledge of SS contract weapons (leaving the bolt shroud unumbered) but missed the mark on the exact manor of serial application. Unfortunately Jordan is right, there are faint numbers scrubbed off the bolt, that’s not automatically a killer though as bolts were recycled, however not typically in this exact manor. The postwar Czech bolt shroud seals the deal as the killer however. The milling on both the shroud and the cocking piece are typical of Czech parts, and I have to imagine the entire bolt is likely a postwar Czech use item, leftovers of their ww2 production. Maybe someone who collects Czech rifles can confirm the triangle marking as another indicator? Lastly the bolt back half shows signs of artificial aging/wear and is certainly not commensurate with the rest of the BR aging, there is also rounding of the number die strikes etc. I cannot comment on the barrel bands as I don’t follow SS contracts enough to give an opinion on that aspect.

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Why do you think that this is Czech bolt? All wartime Czech bolts should have WaA 63 (dou and dot production) and I believe that postwar bolts should not have nazi eagle marking like that. Yes, I agree this bolt has beed renumbered. But when you look closely it seems that there is a faint number 9 behind normal 9 and faint number 8 behind normal 8. Maybe something like "double stamp" or repaired serial number? (Sorry for my English I do not know how to correctly explain but I hope you understand). There are also more "double stamped" markings on this rifle... When you are talking about bolt shroud, I saw very similar bolt shroud on BNZ 4 with single rune and I think it has very similar milling. Here are attached pictures

Give me a bit sir to compile some pictures to illustrate my reasoning, it will be hard to explain otherwise.

There is a fair bit of this rifle screaming podvodná puška

S/42 said:

..screaming podvodná puška

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Fair enough. Still interested in hearing more thoughts. Can we agree at least some of this is original? Bottom metal? Unserialed e/135 stamped TG would be correct. We've seen e/77 milled FP with 4 digit show up even considerably later than this, no? The stock is definitely a Steyr piece no doubt. How about the barrel channel numbers?

futhark44 said:

Why do you think that this is Czech bolt? All wartime Czech bolts should have WaA 63 (dou and dot production) and I believe that postwar bolts should not have nazi eagle marking like that. Yes, I agree this bolt has beed renumbered. But when you look closely it seems that there is a faint number 9 behind normal 9 and faint number 8 behind normal 8. Maybe something like "double stamp" or repaired serial number? (Sorry for my English I do not know how to correctly explain but I hope you understand). There are also more "double stamped" markings on this rifle... When you are talking about bolt shroud, I saw very similar bolt shroud on BNZ 4 with single rune and I think it has very similar milling. Here are attached pictures

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Many postwar Czech used parts still had German proofs intact as they were still wartime production items. Your bolt handle first of all lacks the heavy lathe rings typically seen on Steyr bolts. It also has a smooth fluid bend to it whereas Steyr bolts have an irregular almost geodesic bend to them, probably from a poor bending fixture. As to the e63 proofs I have to say no, not all Brünn bolts were e63 proofed. My assumption of your bolt being postwar is the lack of numbering on the shroud since all wartime Brünn bolts would have a numbered shroud and the surface prep is consistent with factory work, ie. not a scrubbed serial. All the postwar Czech 98k’s have numbered bolt bodies only, the shrouds and safeties are not numbered, ie. it would be a perfect canvas to work up a bolt like yours. Here are some images to explain exactly what features I’m talking about in regards to the milling. All are Steyr rifle images pulled from the reference to show the features of the different shrouds. Also I took some pictures of another Czech shroud for comparison. So far I’ve seen Steyr, Radom, armorer, and possibly imperial armorer shrouds show up on SS contracts, and I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if leftover 214 and 26 proofed shrouds trickled in on the later contract guns but I have yet to see one that I can remember. I have NOT seen a Czech shroud on one ever or even a Czech shroud supplied to any other maker that I can recall for that matter.

These images point out feature generalizations as minor variations are seen, however the shrouds are fairly consistent coming off the same tooling. There are many more characteristic details of each that aren’t pointed out as well.

HM, just covering the bolt here but you are right there is plenty that is original on this rifle, just not nearly ALL of course. I’ve got a feeling the barrel bands are postwar Czech as well, perhaps that’s what Mike and S/42 are onto as well. It’s a lot easier to tell these bands apart in hand than with pictures so I’m not positive on that.

Ham, one of those punch sets sure looks spot on with this font