Bob in OHIO
Senior Member
Sure, the "B" designates beech, but why (was that important)? And, was the B stamped when the Imperial cartouche was stamped or before? I understand the what, just not the why.
Why the "B" on Beech stocks
- Thread starter Bob in OHIO
- Start date
Bigdibbs88
"Ach du lieber!"
I always assumed it was because beech is “Buchenholz” in german
mauser1908
Senior Member
Paul would have a definite answer, but there are a lot of armorers spares that have the 'B' cartouche but lack final right buttstock acceptance because the stock was paired at a depot or lower level repair facility. I would say they were marked before, whether or not they were marked at the same time they received their wrist acceptance, I'm not sure. I think the marking was probably important due to the fact it was considered a substitute and was harder to work with and could have required additional finishing steps before it could be mated to a rifle. The ‘B’ may have been a fool proof way to ensure workers took those additional steps. Who knows, just a thought on that one. To the opposite of that point another hardwood, maple will be marked with an ‘A’ but one would not consider that a substitute by our standard looking back.
Attached is a photo of my 'H' Spandau, this rifle was assembled in a non factory setting. The stock is matching to the rifle.
Attached is a photo of my 'H' Spandau, this rifle was assembled in a non factory setting. The stock is matching to the rifle.
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My guess is because the Germans didn't expect to lose the war and the Army wasn't overjoyed with the use of substitute woods in the first place. Beech cracked and settled during use and as I recall Storz said documents suggest the Army introduced them on an experimental basis, - meaning limited field use, rifles with beech stock monitored to see how they behaved under use in a variety of roles. If a rifle came back to a ordnance center it could be recorded and reported to the proper authorities monitoring the issue.
Eventually, once Germany defeated France (they would have without US loans and munitions, - possibly the greatest error in US history was to be involved, had our forefathers remained truly neutral France and Germany would have had to form a negotiated peace.. nor is this the benefit of hindsight speaking, Americans were very much against the war and many politicians opposed it until Wilson instigated our involvement, involvement that largely rested on the fear of default if France and England lost. Banking interests... Anglophile JP Morgan leading the charge..), the war won, they could replace the stocks on rifles with suitable walnut.
However, who knows, we can only assume what the Germans would have done by how they reacted to the the introduction of the substitute wood. They didn't like it...
Good question btw.
Eventually, once Germany defeated France (they would have without US loans and munitions, - possibly the greatest error in US history was to be involved, had our forefathers remained truly neutral France and Germany would have had to form a negotiated peace.. nor is this the benefit of hindsight speaking, Americans were very much against the war and many politicians opposed it until Wilson instigated our involvement, involvement that largely rested on the fear of default if France and England lost. Banking interests... Anglophile JP Morgan leading the charge..), the war won, they could replace the stocks on rifles with suitable walnut.
However, who knows, we can only assume what the Germans would have done by how they reacted to the the introduction of the substitute wood. They didn't like it...
Good question btw.
A review of Republican era production reveals that walnut remained the primary material, all new production appears to be in walnut, Simson, the few Zeithain's with original stocks, most if not all reworks done by Cassel (E/Cl) seem to carry walnut stocks, - though admittedly a small sample due to the fact Republican era rifles being so rare with original stocks. It appears that Imperial rifles that have beech stocks often retained them, - very few though, I assume because stock material play a factor in deciding which rifles to keep (the vast majority Germany possessed up to 1924 were destroyed), but all ordnance spares were made of walnut, this includes Police used and Simson made ordnance spares.
The fact Germany decided against beech as a substitute in WWII may be a good clue also, - I once read a article published in 1929 (I think) that spoke of the reckless harvesting of walnut in the US during WWI. It decimated walnut populations, this had to have been far worse in Germany, yet they kept with walnut regardless. Until laminate came along anyway.
The fact Germany decided against beech as a substitute in WWII may be a good clue also, - I once read a article published in 1929 (I think) that spoke of the reckless harvesting of walnut in the US during WWI. It decimated walnut populations, this had to have been far worse in Germany, yet they kept with walnut regardless. Until laminate came along anyway.
Other contemporary miltarys were using beech as well, I believe Sweden and Austria made use of it during the Great War era.
I personally dislike it as a collector, as it doesn't take on the awesome patina that well-seasoned walnut does. It doesn't hold inspection stamps well either, they tend to be blurry and indistinct.
No mention of the mythical (?) 'A' maple stocks, or the 'R' elm stocks? Germans and Yugoslavs used elm a bit in WW2 and later, as did the Israelis. Supposedly the Swedes used maple in limited quantities on M96 rifles.
Here's an example that shows the settling and cracking of beech, often called 'checking' or 'shakes' in woodworking parlance. 1917 DWM with the 2 piece butt.
I personally dislike it as a collector, as it doesn't take on the awesome patina that well-seasoned walnut does. It doesn't hold inspection stamps well either, they tend to be blurry and indistinct.
No mention of the mythical (?) 'A' maple stocks, or the 'R' elm stocks? Germans and Yugoslavs used elm a bit in WW2 and later, as did the Israelis. Supposedly the Swedes used maple in limited quantities on M96 rifles.
Here's an example that shows the settling and cracking of beech, often called 'checking' or 'shakes' in woodworking parlance. 1917 DWM with the 2 piece butt.
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heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
That's as logical an explanation as I've heard. It even makes sense.
Absolut
Senior Member
Starting from the "Austrian approach" ... Austria also used various types of wood on the M.95 rifle. And this was not started with WWI, but started with the M.95 from its first day and it was more than just two types. Therefore these were always designated with a single letter in front of the magazine guard. I'm at least aware and have seen the following:
"A" for "Ahorn" (Maple)
"K" for "Kastanie" (Chestnut)
"N" for "Nuss" (Walnut)
"R" for "Rüster" (Elm)
... there were also experiments with laminate wood and Birch being done. Documents also mention crude trials with tropical wood which once had been at hand. However, once the stock has been finished, it is (aside of the Elm) very hard to tell without reading the letter which type of wood it is since they were most often also stained to look like walnut.
Comparing this to Germany who used from the beginning only Walnut and therefore it was not necessary to mark them as being Walnut. To my knowledge Beech stocks started appearing with WWI, which means it was used as replacement for the lack of Walnut. Of course you then don't start marking the existing rifles too. Therefore I assume this was simply to see if any type of wood would result in problems in the field, rather than to replace these all later. I mean we would encounter much less B marked stocks nowadays, if this had been the case.
"A" for "Ahorn" (Maple)
"K" for "Kastanie" (Chestnut)
"N" for "Nuss" (Walnut)
"R" for "Rüster" (Elm)
... there were also experiments with laminate wood and Birch being done. Documents also mention crude trials with tropical wood which once had been at hand. However, once the stock has been finished, it is (aside of the Elm) very hard to tell without reading the letter which type of wood it is since they were most often also stained to look like walnut.
Comparing this to Germany who used from the beginning only Walnut and therefore it was not necessary to mark them as being Walnut. To my knowledge Beech stocks started appearing with WWI, which means it was used as replacement for the lack of Walnut. Of course you then don't start marking the existing rifles too. Therefore I assume this was simply to see if any type of wood would result in problems in the field, rather than to replace these all later. I mean we would encounter much less B marked stocks nowadays, if this had been the case.
I agree, beech is not desirable to me either, often the acceptance stamps are next to impossible to decipher.
The other substitute wood are so rare as to deserve the reputation as mythical... Mauser seems the only to have used them and very rarely. R is practically a myth outside of Storz, though I have seen "R" marked once, not even sure if it is the mythical elm.
** couldn't find the picture of the "R", though I did find "E", supposedly for oak? PeterK rifle, he didn't show much of the rifle and his datasheet is not helpful in regards to the stock origins. Said serialed to match the Danzig/05 it hosts, but obviously this can't be if this is one of the substitute woods. CB suggested the possibility it is oak, but who knows... BiO is a "man of the wood", maybe he can offer his opinion? Personally, considering the stock has no grips or takedown it doesn't seem likely the E=Eiche, but I learned to be careful questioning CB many years ago!
The other substitute wood are so rare as to deserve the reputation as mythical... Mauser seems the only to have used them and very rarely. R is practically a myth outside of Storz, though I have seen "R" marked once, not even sure if it is the mythical elm.
** couldn't find the picture of the "R", though I did find "E", supposedly for oak? PeterK rifle, he didn't show much of the rifle and his datasheet is not helpful in regards to the stock origins. Said serialed to match the Danzig/05 it hosts, but obviously this can't be if this is one of the substitute woods. CB suggested the possibility it is oak, but who knows... BiO is a "man of the wood", maybe he can offer his opinion? Personally, considering the stock has no grips or takedown it doesn't seem likely the E=Eiche, but I learned to be careful questioning CB many years ago!
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From my eye, that image looks like a walnut stock (post #10). Not sure what the 'E' would represent; the font size is a bit smaller than the usual 'B'.
There are some instances of Imperial depot markings (usually seen on the butt plate) being applied to wood. I've only observed that on G88 rifles though, and only on the wrist or the heel of the stock.
IIRC, Bob sent some wood samples to the Forestry Service some years back? Some debate about elm/teak/oak in regards to 1943 MO stock production? For years it seemed like postwar Yugoslav M48 rifle stocks were 'teak' but turned out to be elm. More than a few collectors got egg on their face from that one.
Also recall a certain 1915 JPS Gew98 from the ANG that was beech wood, but did not have the 'B' designation. That rifle was likely made in early '16, and may be one of the first uses of beech wood. I thought it was beech (against differing opinions), and MauserBill took one look at it and called it beech.
CB is sorely missed, and Bill needs to get his a$$ back to collecting, or at least paying attention to it.
There are some instances of Imperial depot markings (usually seen on the butt plate) being applied to wood. I've only observed that on G88 rifles though, and only on the wrist or the heel of the stock.
IIRC, Bob sent some wood samples to the Forestry Service some years back? Some debate about elm/teak/oak in regards to 1943 MO stock production? For years it seemed like postwar Yugoslav M48 rifle stocks were 'teak' but turned out to be elm. More than a few collectors got egg on their face from that one.
Also recall a certain 1915 JPS Gew98 from the ANG that was beech wood, but did not have the 'B' designation. That rifle was likely made in early '16, and may be one of the first uses of beech wood. I thought it was beech (against differing opinions), and MauserBill took one look at it and called it beech.
CB is sorely missed, and Bill needs to get his a$$ back to collecting, or at least paying attention to it.
Agreed... on both counts.
I doubted the E=oak also, but mostly due to the nature of the stock, - could be as you say, unfortunately Peter isn't known for his excessive picture taking. He typically does one top receiver shot or a few embedded low quality pictures and replying on a datasheet. It is possible with more pictures of the stock to identify its origins (maker-rough date), but not the RS alone.
Anyway, Peter is a lot like CB, old school and not much on picture taking. Often you just go along with them until you know they're wrong, - you never know what they have up their sleeve and if you "call them" they might make you look stupid.
I doubted the E=oak also, but mostly due to the nature of the stock, - could be as you say, unfortunately Peter isn't known for his excessive picture taking. He typically does one top receiver shot or a few embedded low quality pictures and replying on a datasheet. It is possible with more pictures of the stock to identify its origins (maker-rough date), but not the RS alone.
Anyway, Peter is a lot like CB, old school and not much on picture taking. Often you just go along with them until you know they're wrong, - you never know what they have up their sleeve and if you "call them" they might make you look stupid.
mauser1908
Senior Member
I have seen a couple prominent ‘R’s on m1918 Tankgewehrs. I’ll see if I can find dig up some photos.
Bob in OHIO
Senior Member
Actually, Bruce sent the sample, but it was clearly elm (from me) well before the anatomical confirmation... and the "E" marked stock is certainly not oak.
mauser1908
Senior Member
Two 1918 Tankgewehrs stocked in Elm.
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pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
Yep, I just sold a Steyr M95 unconverted Long rifle that had a non-standard stock, it was stamped "K" for Chestnut, and had a very distinctive looking stock (although, honestly it wasn't in an appealing way)...I'll have to check the one I kept when I get home...
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
+1 The cores just aren't right. I think they were probably all slab cut.
