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HZa stamped Austro-Hungarian Model 1890 Extra Corps Gewehr

Pat

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Thanks to a seller mislabelling it, I was able to sneak up on this Austro-Hungarian Model 1890 Mannlicher Extra Corps Gewehr, also known as a Gendarmerie Carbine. This is one of three similar types of carbine-length arms built and used by the Austro-Hungarian Empire that preceded the much better known Model 1895 Mannlicher rifles, carbines and stutzens. This one is unconverted, chambered in the original 8X50R and utilizes an earlier style bolt than the more familiar Model 1895 type. This one was made at Steyr, as I believe all of them were. These had a very neat, side sliding butt plate door for storing cleaning rods that was not retained in the Model 1895 FOWs. This particular carbine was originally used by a Landes Gendarmerie Commando unit that operated in Slovenia, prior to likely requisition by regular K.u.K. forces once the war began.

There were two markings I wasn't sure about on the underside of the stock. The first is like a Greek 'Pi' letter, or what an individual, upside down staple looks like. It is located just ahead of the trigger assembly. The other is just behind the trigger assembly, on the stock wrist. The latter is clearly a Cyrillic 'D.' I talked to John Sheehan ('JPS' on Gunboards) about this during the time he was working on 'Serbian Army - Weapons of Victory, 1914-1918' with Branislav Stankovic. He originally thought it could be a Serbian captured carbine, acquired probably early in the war and kept in Serbia, and then the later Yugoslavia. After looking into it further, it appears that it lacks particular traits that should be expected with Serbian approved arms. Instead, John suggested that it was actually captured by Imperial Russian forces from A-H forces, and stamped with what he later determined were Russian stamps. It was apparently retained by the Soviets until its ostensible capture by German forces in WWII. It was then sent as a captured weapon to the Heereszeugamt at Wels, Austria, as noted by the 'Ws 1' stamp on the right side of the butt stock. The Wels depot is known from period US Army documents as a facility for processing and storing small arms, among other things.

Pat
 

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That's damned cool....they really used everything, didn't they.

An awesome find just as a gun still in original 8x50R, but also German Depot marked...ticks all the boxes!

What a great piece, another for Beutewaffen when it gets written!

:thumbsup:
 
Very nice gendarmerie carbine Landes Gendarmerie Commando 12 in Lubljana/Laibach now Slovenia, personally dont believe the piece made a trip to Russia, its mostly like mentioned a yugoslavian area piece, proofed on butt with P and D cyrilic stamps, not all M95 were converted to M95M configuration, mostly captured by germans in Yugoslavia and send to Ws1 in this case its not refurbishment more a property stamp, as seen on various police items, mainly too on M95 bayonets, that were not refurbished in any case. b.r.Andy
 
Thanks guys, I really like this little carbine.

Andy, like you I also considered the Yugoslavian use theory to be the more plausible scenario, but John Sheehan knows far more about weapons from that period than I ever will. I would think that his collaborative work on the Serbian weapons book makes him a very reliable source of information on Serbian use of foreign weapons, too. This carbine just doesn’t have the expected indicators of Serbian use that I would expect.

Best,
Pat


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Very cool carbine. I agree with Andy, probably taken in the Yugoslavian campaign. Russia seems very unlikely IMO. Hundreds of thousands of these Mannlicher rifles were floating around the Balkans after WWI and the Balkan wars. Markings could be from Serbian or possibly Bulgarian service.
 
Ryan,
I hadn't considered a Bulgarian connection, thanks for suggesting that. The funny thing is that the first person I showed the pics to is Bulgarian, and he dismissed the Cyrillic 'D' as not being a D...

Like I mentioned to AndyB, I like the Serbian capture idea more than a Russian theory, even with John Sheehan strongly arguing the latter. My gut tells me 'Serbian capture,' for what that's worth.
 
Wow Pat you seem to have a penchant for finding odd rifles from the east that the Germans got their hands on. Just finding anything still in 8x50 isn't too easy any more. Kind of amazing it made it this long without someone monkeying with it along the way. Thanks for sharing! :thumbsup:
 
Interesting

That is a unique find...what a cool story that rifle tells...The miracle is the markings not being sanded or ruined. :thumbsup:
Has to be one of the rarest "capture rifles"
 
I known John and know he is a expert, anyway here should be asked Branko B. as he is serbian, and in his books is described that not all M95 were reworked.
The important information is this is a not army weapon, its not Field Gendarmerie but Landes Gendarmerie Commando, that means a rural police, its have no link to Army.It was in civilian branches so under Ministry of interior not Ministry of Defence.b.r.Andy
The Bulgarian could be a good point, but they reworked mostly all weapons to new caliber 8x56R, and germans could not capture it there, as it has Wels 1 stamp.
But it could be in other way, captured by germans in Slowenia 1941 , send to Wels and then send to Bulgaria as a help and added some stamps in cyrilica, and there not refurbished. Some Ws1 bayonets M95 were found in Bulgaria reworked.
 
Thanks Heavy_Mech and Jack944 :thumbsup:

AndyB,
Good point and thank you for clarifying the L.G.C. as a civilian law enforcement unit. I've edited my original description in this thread. My guess is that it was either requisitioned by K.u.K. armed forces for regular use in 1914, or it remained in Slovenia until the German invasion as you suggested. Compared to other possibilities, I would think that the Bulgarian route would be the least likely scenario, personally.

I agree that some Mannlichers remained unconverted in Yugoslavia, but I also think they were definitely in a very thin minority. The standardization program in the 1930s brought many foreign Mausers and different types of Mannlichers into a generalized 'Model 1924' configuration, as you know. I guess this one somehow escaped conversion.

Pat
 
When i am correct Branko speaked about 185000 Mannlichers M88/90 and M95 systems in Yugoslavia in 20ies, the highest number of M95M is about 125000 so remains when i am correct is about 60000 of unconverted rifles, and i personally dont believe the M90 Gendarmerie was added into this range of army weapons. Its same as in Czechoslovakia post 1918 Gendarmerie used old austrian M1890 carbines prior change to Vz.33 carbines, so minimum to 1935 was still in use old austrian police equipment. Similar it was probably in Yugoslavia, there exist police M1924 rifles delivered from FN in early 30ies. b.r.Andy
why would be this requisitioned by army? the eagle is a fireproof and they buyed weapons for gendarmery per army channel, so it have similar markings as army weapons
 
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Hi Andy,
What FN M1924 Police (Gendarmerie) rifle type in Yugoslavia are you referring to? The only one of that general configuration I've heard of was the Vz.24 purchased from Czechoslovakia. FN's Yugoslav contract rifles in the Model 1924 configuration were 'standard' Army Model 1924 rifles dated to 1926-28. Those are marked 'CXC' for the 'Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes.' My understanding is that those were standard Yugoslav Royal Army rifles.

In 1914 the Austro-Hungarian Army sequestered different types of rifles being produced at Steyr for foreign contracts, such as the Model 1893 Romanian Mannlicher, Gewehr 88 rifles, M1904 Mannlichers, Latin American M1914 Mannlichers and the Greek contract Model 1903/14 rifles. I suggested that the Army probably 'requisitioned' carbines like the M1890 series since they were already seizing the other rifles, too. If the goal is to arm your troops quickly with as many arms as you can get, it seems to make sense to requisition Gendarmerie arms, too. I could certainly be wrong, and it could be that the carbines remained in Gendarmerie inventory through the war and were retained as CXC and later, Yugoslavian assets after the change to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

Thanks for the ongoing discussion,
Pat
 
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You are confusing something here. It is NOT connected with the Gendarmerie. While there were indeed short Mannlicher Straight Pull rifles in Gendarmerie-usage post WWII, those always were abbreviated with LGK (for LandesGendarmerieKommando - it is always KOMMANDO and not Commado in German!) and then followed by a single letter for the country in Austria it was used with (like LGK.B. for LandesGendarmerieKommando Burgenland).

This therefore is an unit marking still from the original WWI period and not connected to Police.
 
i believe the designation was in pre 1890 with C instead of K, the mentioned LGK could be found on austrian republic items post 1918. Similar it was by Compagnie used to 1870 in this form by germans not in form as Kompanie. But i will proof in old unit book. b.r.Andy
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...es-Gendarmerie-Commando_-_Posten_W0261383.jpg

In Czechoslovakia was not requisitioned Gendarmerie arms post 1918 were used fluently to 1935. Some additional M90 and M95 were added to Gendarmerie and Police from army storages. About serbian and Yugoslavian i couldnt confirm.
 
To FN production You should look at W.D.Ball Mauser rifles of the world in Serbia/Yugoslavia section, and FN Military rifles new book of Mr. VanderLinden p.280, where is pictured a Policija Nis, which is a serbian town Police weapon,similar exist of Zagreb and possible other towns, as by police units were M24 carbines buyed separatelly . In 1928 even started Kragujevac production of new M24 so army asked for all production prior 1933. these carbines were delivered early 30ies.
As mentioned about austrians, the gendarmerie were still in use to 1918, mainly in areas of Slowenia and countries where austrians and magyars were in minority, only few rifles were resend to army.
There is exact description of CS situation, archive materials, where he spoke about 6500 of carbines M90 and M95 were in gendarmery erar in 1919, so its not in any army inventory, and was fluently continued with members of gendarmery into new state, as many were czech natives so only hungarians gendarm were replaced mainly in area of Slovakia, but old equipment remained.
As 1920 were mentioned that the number of arms by Gendarmerie is low, they ordered per Ministry of Defence buying of 5500 carbines of M95 by ZB which were later CET proofed, the control inspection was done by army inspector team but gun were payed by Ministry of Interior, so its not property of army and could be not listed in Army inventory.
Similar as firearms of NYPD are not listed in US Army inventory!!
-Serbian expert should be asked how were marked police and gendarmerie arms, and how modells they were used prior to change of new rifles.
 
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You are confusing something here. It is NOT connected with the Gendarmerie. While there were indeed short Mannlicher Straight Pull rifles in Gendarmerie-usage post WWII, those always were abbreviated with LGK (for LandesGendarmerieKommando - it is always KOMMANDO and not Commado in German!) and then followed by a single letter for the country in Austria it was used with (like LGK.B. for LandesGendarmerieKommando Burgenland).

This therefore is an unit marking still from the original WWI period and not connected to Police.

Absolut,
AndyB is correct, L.G.C. is Landes Gendarmerie Commando, in spite of the very counter-intuitive use of Commando as opposed to Kommando. I was provided with an excerpt from a book (in German) on these showing the same abbreviation and meaning, and the same area of operations in Slovenia. This was a unit that pre-dates WWI.


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