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1940 Borsigwalde Navy k98k Help Needed

BGold

Member
Hello,
I'm going to be looking at a 1940, code 243 k98k for sale locally in the next week or so and need some help. Seller tells me by phone its matching numbers "t" suffix and has an eagle M on stock but stock discs have no "N" or "O" numbers. Could this be correct for late 1940? I can't find any solid info concerning when stock disc numbering was discontinued by Kriegsmarine.

I do have a copy of Karabiner 98k vol II, haven't found answer there. Any advice or red flags would be very helpful.

If seller will allow, I'll try to take some photos and post. Given that seller is not computer savvy and over the phone he won't tell me the serial number other than it is four digits followed by letter "t", I have my doubts.

Thanks, Bob
 
If it has the M designation, chances are it will not be marked on the discs as it was already designated as a Navy rifle. When you see ostsee or nordsee designation on the discs it generally means it has an Army "H" on the butt, THEN diverted to the Navy with a disc designation. Not with both.
 
Naval acceptance stamps

Dave most of the early Navy rifles are property marked on the disk, including Army diverts.
Not until later in 1941 did the application of disk property marks cease.

If its a 40 dated Navy rifle, chances are it should have a property mark on the disk.
 
My Ar41 had just the N on the disc. No fleet #. There is a chance there could be an N or O on the butt plate.

I wouldn't kick it out of bed for lacking a fleet marking. The chances of the disc being changed is slim to none IMHO
 
Hello Bob,

this could be a original Kriegsmarine rifle, it would suit to my observations.

I hope you can take some photos and post them here, then we can say more about the rifle.

Regards,
Stephan
 
Dave most of the early Navy rifles are property marked on the disk, including Army diverts.
Not until later in 1941 did the application of disk property marks cease.

If its a 40 dated Navy rifle, chances are it should have a property mark on the disk.

Bruce,

Would it have both the "M" butt marking AND the disc marking? Or either/or?
 
Mailman just dropped off my "second" Ostsee marked bSw stock. Army accepted with KM disc.

DSC05017.jpgDSC05018.jpg
 
Kriegsmarine acceptance

Our forum member Stephan has done an incredible job along with Andrew in compiling data on the naval issued K98ks.
By late 1940, the property numbers for the North sea group were eliminated and the disk was stamped with a simple 'N'.
The property numbers for the Ost or east region were eliminated by 1940 according to Stephan's research.

With respect to Mauser Berlin Borsigwalde (243 and ar codes), the property numbers ended in the early 'o' block of 1940 production.

I am sure that he can comment further on this situation given the fact that he and Andrew did the bulk of the research and serial number gathering.

By late 1941, the application of Naval acceptance markings to K98ks ended. Depending on the manufacturer, the final serial number ranges vary.
 
My confusion lays where there are two different ways of marking. The "disc" marking and the actual "M" marking on the wood. I sold a beauty of a stock to flynaked last year. It was a laminate/cupped E/26 with a very nice "M" near the disc. The OP said the rifle he is interested in is reported to have the "M" marking but no O or N on the disc. My original reply was that it would not have both the "M" AND disc markings. This is correct ?
 
Navy marked rifles

I would bet that at least 50% of the Kriegsmarine issued rifles have both the E/M stock acceptance and the property numbers and or letter stamped on the disk.
Nearly all of the Navy issued K98ks will have the E/M stock acceptance with the exception of the Army diverts, and the Chinese contract run from Mauser.

Remember the E/M was a factory acceptance stamp indicating final Kriegsmarine acceptance. The property marks were not applied at the factory, but likely struck at the Naval depot or
main routing facility where the weapons were received from each factory.

I don't know about the Army diverts, but they were likely transferred from inventory held at depots and not shipped from the manufacturer.
 
If it has the M designation, chances are it will not be marked on the discs as it was already designated as a Navy rifle. When you see ostsee or nordsee designation on the discs it generally means it has an Army "H" on the butt, THEN diverted to the Navy with a disc designation. Not with both.

Hello,

Bruce has already explained it very well, the E/M stock acceptance stamp was a factory acceptance stamp indicating final Kriegsmarine acceptance, it has nothing to do with the Naval fleet designation (Ostsee and Nordsee) and property number. The Army diverts with E/H stock acceptance stamp AND the rifles with E/M Kriegsmarine stock acceptance stamp got the Naval fleet designation and property number on the discs.

We know Kriegsmarine rifles with fleet designation Ostsee (Baltic Sea) and Nordsee (North Sea), around September 1939 the first "Undesignated" Kriegsmarine rifles occur. These "Undesignated" Kriegsmarine rifles only have the E/M Kriegsmarine stock acceptance stamp, no fleet designation with property number.
In August 1939 the Navy-Group-Command West was set up in Sengwarden near Wilhelmshaven. The Navy-Group-Command West was operational command post for the North Sea and Atlantic, it led in the Norway campaign. Around one month after the set up of the Navy-Group-Command West the first "Undesignated" K98ks occur, I think there is a connection.

Keep in mind some things are different at the other manufacturer/assembler, here's a short report about Mauser Berlin-Borsigwalde:
- The Mauser Berlin Kriegsmarine rifles in 1937 and 1938 are Army diverts, with E/H stock acceptance stamp and fleet designation with property number.
- In 1939 and 1940 the Mauser Berlin Kriegsmarine rifles have E/M stock acceptance stamp and fleet designation with property number, in addition there are the "Undesignated" Kriegsmarine rifles which I mentioned before.
- The Mauser Berlin Kriegsmarine rifles in 1941 have the E/M stock acceptance stamp, they are either "Undesignated" or marked with the Nordsee Fleet designation "N" at the discs.
Around August 1940 the Ostsee Fleet designation and property number was eliminated. The Nordsee property number was also eliminated around August 1940, the Nordsee Fleet designation "N" was eliminated around December 1941.

The Kriegsmarine rifles are a complex topic and if I have more time in the near future, I will go into more details. I still have a request, please share the data from your Kriegsmarine rifles and also individual stocks are important.

@ mowzerluvr
Your new Kriegsmarine stock with Ostsee property number "O.21826" belongs to a BSW 1939, what is the serial number?

Regards,
Stephan
 
I have two of them. One is sn. 7269 no suffix with O.17425 and 6751 no suffix with O.21826. Both with E/H acceptance.

bswi.jpgDSC05017.jpg
 
Thanks to all for the great info concerning Mauser Berlin KM rifle markings. I feel much more confident in possibly making an informed purchase.
I wish to express a special thank you to Stephan and Bruce.

Best Regards, Bob
 
Dave glad to see you get another fine stock from across the big pond! Could you imagine if it was turned into firewood! :faint:

Actually, I have 3 stocks in the next shipment that had the wrist area trimmed to make hunting stocks out of. Viking Santa found them while visiting an old gunsmith. Not much left for K98 parts in Norway now so he broadened his search. In with the 3 damaged stocks he discovered an untouched bSw stock that had fortune shine down on it. No Navy property marks but an intact, matching bSw stock none the less. And yes, I bought it. Here are the damaged and the miracle e/4. Distant pic of the e/4 but it's real.

cut98.jpgcut98c.jpgbsws1.jpgbsws.jpg
 
For an update, Viking Santa has found me ANOTHER bSw stock with Ostsee designation. I will post pics and more info when I have it.
 

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