Third Party Press

The LK5 marking - A new track

Your welcome! They're not mine, I found them posted on another site. They're very intriguing and open up more possibilities,.

Speaking of intriguing, now I'm wondering about the '7,9mm Italian rifles.' I'm not aware of any types produced beyond the experimental range in 7.9mm, and the existence of those rifles in that caliber are merely speculative in most cases. None of them went to full production. I'll email Rafael Riccio and see if he's aware of any that might be candidates for that type. Considering the date of that order (10 December 1943), it would rule out any that were being developed or tested after that date...

Best,
Pat
 
I have never mentioned the Landesschützen-Bataillone, I was sometimes thinking about them because of their weapons and Landesschützen starts with the letter "L".

Personnelly significant for the military commander in France were the subordinated Landesschützen-Bataillone. From 1943 they was reclassified and renamed to Sicherungsbataillone. The soldiers of the Sicherungsbataillone were mostly older and was as example equipped with French rifles. They was also deployed in the relavant areas in Southern France.

In February 1943, the stock of weapons was reduced at some units, these were given to other units or the HZa. I have a order from the Wehrkreiskommando XXI and reports from the HZa Posen about this topic.
Some Landesschützen-Bataillone from Posen, Litzmannstadt and other cities gave away some of their rifles. Mostly these was rifle 24(t), rifle M98, K98a, rifle M95 (j), rifle 98 (p) and just a few K98k.

Now I'm busy and later I could list the exact weapons and units, if it's from interest.
 
Speaking of intriguing, now I'm wondering about the '7,9mm Italian rifles.'

A few possibilities:

1) Most likely: a mistake, the order meant 7.35mm rifles
2) Perhaps a reference to some of the Italian 8mm Mannlichers or even a reference to the 8mm Breda 37 which were well used by the Germans especially in anti-partisan units.
3) A reference to planned (or even speculative) deliveries of converted Carcanos. Seems the least likely possibility IMO.
 
I have never mentioned the Landesschützen-Bataillone, I was sometimes thinking about them because of their weapons and Landesschützen starts with the letter "L".

Personnelly significant for the military commander in France were the subordinated Landesschützen-Bataillone. From 1943 they was reclassified and renamed to Sicherungsbataillone. The soldiers of the Sicherungsbataillone were mostly older and was as example equipped with French rifles. They was also deployed in the relavant areas in Southern France.

In February 1943, the stock of weapons was reduced at some units, these were given to other units or the HZa. I have a order from the Wehrkreiskommando XXI and reports from the HZa Posen about this topic.
Some Landesschützen-Bataillone from Posen, Litzmannstadt and other cities gave away some of their rifles. Mostly these was rifle 24(t), rifle M98, K98a, rifle M95 (j), rifle 98 (p) and just a few K98k.

Now I'm busy and later I could list the exact weapons and units, if it's from interest.

Stephan, speaking of Landesschutzen-Battaillone, I posted this about a mark found on the buttplate of a French Model 07-15/34 that is marked LK-5...

I know it was pretty much dismissed, but it may be worth keeping it as another puzzle piece....

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?32939-Is-this-a-WWII-German-Unit-Mark
 
The Breda 37 makes sense as a 8mm 'weapon' in that context, but the order specified 'rifles,' which is what threw me.

Stephan, can you confirm that the order specified 'rifles?'

Thanks,
Pat
 
A few possibilities:
Perhaps a reference to some of the Italian 8mm Mannlichers.

Is 8x50 mannlicher listed as 7.9 in German documents pertaining to captured Mannlichers? If so, I would reason that the rifles in queston are indeed Mannlichers.
 
Is 8x50 mannlicher listed as 7.9 in German documents pertaining to captured Mannlichers?

No. The Kennblatter Fremden Gerats shows a Greek M.95 Mannlicher long rifle as '8mm.' Other weapons chambered in 7.92X57mm are listed as '7,9.'

Mannlichers offer a possibility, and they are represented in a July 1942 inventory conducted by the Italian Ministry of War, most of which could be expected to have been confiscated by the Germans in September 1943. Here's what's shown:

-Model 1888 and 1895 Mannlicher rifles ('Fucili') - 30,182
-Model 1888 and 1895 Mannlicher carbines ('Moschetti') - 2,186
-8mm Mannlicher rifles ('Fucili'), no type specified - 28,503

It should be noted that '7,92' is specified when listing Mauser rifles, otherwise '8mm' is used (French Lebels, Mannlichers, British and Soviet rifles). Interestingly, the document quoted by Stephan was released in the same month and year as the document listing Italian rifles and carbines seized after the Italian armistice with the Allies. The latter document noted 390,000 Italian rifles and carbines were sent to the Reich.
 
The Breda 37 makes sense as a 8mm 'weapon' in that context, but the order specified 'rifles,' which is what threw me.

Stephan, can you confirm that the order specified 'rifles?'

Thanks,
Pat

Pat, I can confirm that the order specified rifles. There are listed rifles and carbines(only Norwegian).

By the way, I will remember the list with the rifles which I mentioned in the Landesschützen-Battaillon post.


@ pzjgr
Thank you very much for the link to your French Model 07-15/34. It's very interesting to see a unit marking (which is strange) of a Landesschützen-Battaillon which was deployed in France, together with a LK5 marking. The Landesschützen-Bataillon 541 was setup on August 5, 1940 in the Wehrkreis VII.
 
@ pzjgr
Thank you very much for the link to your French Model 07-15/34. It's very interesting to see a unit marking (which is strange) of a Landesschützen-Battaillon which was deployed in France, together with a LK5 marking. The Landesschützen-Bataillon 541 was setup on August 5, 1940 in the Wehrkreis VII.

Stephan...well, its up in the air whether that is what it actually is, but I thought it made some sense...here is the thread with pics of the actual rifle too...

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?32894-French-Mle-1907-15-M-34

I know the marking doesn't fit known patterns or practice, but as I said, may be a useful tidbit if any other new info comes to light...
 
Stephan...well, its up in the air whether that is what it actually is, but I thought it made some sense...here is the thread with pics of the actual rifle too...

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?32894-French-Mle-1907-15-M-34

I know the marking doesn't fit known patterns or practice, but as I said, may be a useful tidbit if any other new info comes to light...

I'm glad you show it and it could be a important puzzle piece, because the marking doesn't fit the known practice.
 
In February 1943, the stock of weapons was reduced at some units, these were given to other units or the HZa. I have a order from the Wehrkreiskommando XXI and reports from the HZa Posen about this topic.
Some Landesschützen-Bataillone from Posen, Litzmannstadt and other cities gave away some of their rifles. Mostly these was rifle 24(t), rifle M98, K98a, rifle M95 (j), rifle 98 (p) and just a few K98k.

Here is a excerpt:

Wehrkreiskommando XXI - Posen February 26, 1943

"To hand in with the weapons is also the 1st ammunition equipment (30 rounds per rifle, 16 rounds per pistol) and, if available, the hit pattern and barrel-examination-report.

Also to hand in are the cleaning kit 34, which are more than 20% of firearms.

All drill cartridges (5 pieces per rifle).
"

Rifles - Carbines a1.jpg

Pistols a2.jpg

Bayonets a3.jpg
 
LK5 - Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5

Deutsche Waffenstillstandskommission (DWStK) - German Armistice Commission

The German Armistice Commission (DWStK) was a political administrative committee based in Wiesbaden, which existed from 1940 to 1944. Its function was to exercise the task resulting from the Franco-German armistice of 25 June 1940 of supervising compliance with the armistice conditions imposed on France, in particular in military terms.

The DWStK began work on June 30, 1940. Associated with this was a French delegation, the Délégation Française auprès de l'Commission Allemande d 'Armistice (DFCAA), whose role was to transmit the German instructions to the French Government, which was responsible for their practical implementation. At the same time, the DFCAA forwarded the wishes and suggestions of the Vichy government to the German Armistice Commission.

The DWStK existed for nearly four years as a large-scale authority. Heads were first the General Carl-Heinrich von Stülpnagel, later General Oskar Vogl (February 1941 to September 1944). Their French counterparts were Generals Charles Huntziger, Jean Louis Humbert, Paul-André Doyen, Etienne Paul Beynet and Louis Bérard.

There were various departments, like Rüstungsinspektion (Armament-inspection), Rüstungskontrollkommision (Armament-control-commission) to name just a few. The relevant department for us is the special task force Luftwaffe, the Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission V.

Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5

The Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5 (Luftwaffe control-commission 5) was a special task force of the Luftwaffe and according to "Genst.Gen.Qu. 2. Abt. Nr. 7845/40 geh. II A, 1.8.1940" it was set up on August 1, 1940. The headquarters of Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5 was located since August 18, 1940 in Aix-en-Provence in Southern France.

The commander of the Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5, Lieutenant-Colonel Ernst van Vloten, died on October 10, 1940 in a plane crash. The transport plane a Junkers crashed between Montpellier and Marseille into the Gulf of Beauduc. With Lieutenant-Colonel Ernst van Vloten all Ju 52/3m crew members, some Italian and French control-commission members died.
Colonel Ernst Exss was commander of the Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 3, in October 1940 he got transfered and got appointed as commander of the Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5 in Aix-en-Provence. In this function, on April 1, 1942 Ernst Exss got promoted to Major General.

The Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5 was responsible as example for the armament of the French Armistice Air Force, anti-aircraft guns, artillery and small arms. In addition removal of certain French flying forces from general demobilization therewith they can start with their planes and give them fire permits for the purpose of repelling British attacks.

The Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5 was dissolved during the year 1943.

In period documents I could see several abbreviation for Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5. Sometimes it's written "Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5", sometimes "Luftwaffen-Kontroll-Kommission 5", but the most common is Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5.
The abbreviation "LK5", "LKK5" and "LwKK5" are possible.

Map Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5 in Aix-en-Provence / Southern France
Map Aix-en-Provence.jpg

Feldpost (Field Post) of Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5
Feldpost.jpg

Regards,
Stephan
 
The Luftwaffe connection helps this narrative, upon the dissolution of the LK5, the small arms found there way to arming French paramilitary-auxiliary SS/police forces. The presence of so many lightly used G98's always suggested limited service for most of the war and really these rifles couldn't have seen extensive use in the field... I never liked the "French-Connection" in isolation, it has merit in the end game, but not in the origins.
 
Thank you Paul!

What do you think about pzjgr's French Model 07-15/34 "Link" and the Landesschützen-Battaillon 541 unit marking? I know a unit marking is strange in this time frame, but this Landesschützen-Battaillon was deployed in France and I have the feeling this marking is legit. It's also interesting the LK5 marking was hidden under the old tape.

Just a thought:
On August 5, 1940 the Landesschützen-Battaillon 541 was set up as occupation troops for France. On October 1, 1942 the battalion handed over the 4th to 6th Company to form the Landesschützen-Bataillon 505.
In February 1943, the stock of weapons was reduced at some units, in particular Landesschützen-Battaillons like you could see in my Posen example. Maybe in the end of 1942, beginning 1943 it was similar with the Landesschützen-Battaillon 541, their stock of weapons was reduced and the Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5 got this rifle. During 1943 the Luftwaffen-Kontrollkommission 5 was dissolved and the rifle was certainly relocated again, maybe to a auxiliary unit.
Like I have written in my text about the Milice Française, the Germans hesitated for a long time to arm the Milice. This happened after the publication of a decree in July 1943, with which the French were authorized to participate in the Waffen-SS.

Regards,
Stephan
 
This subject, in its complexity, requires someone of your talents... you have the combination of all the skills most of us lack (language skills, researcher mentality/number cruncher and steadfastness/relentlessness), which is why I once stated you bring it together like no other researcher in the past has. It wasn't flattery or sentimentality, it was a fact, - who else here could find the necessary archives or documents to have taken it this far, who could have translated and interpret them within our context here? Who among us understand the structure and tedious regulations of the German Army as you do... I have read dozens of books and have a 20 years accumulation of databases largely trended, but that is trivial in comparison to your skills.

I read what you have discovered, some of it is a little far fetched, but that is party because you are offering the full spectrum of possibilities (within a framework of a theory) and the limitations of my understanding of the German occupation in France (which is limited), very few books in English deal on this subject, the armistice and governance of its terms, - most were written to glorify/exaggerate the "resistance", glossing over the widespread collaboration (in all the occupied countries, - except Poland... that was hard ball occupation, incredible savagery beginning to end and continued against the USSR)

It is important to try and limit the complexity of the theory though, things like this are best explained when there is less complexity to the argument. The fewer moving parts the better, the two theories seem to have a connection, but it might be difficult to link them directly. I wouldn't force it, just keep searching for a commonality between the two events. (You do not have to worry about anyone beating you to the answer! Sometimes a researcher wants to be first, as there is only one person that can originate an original thought or theory, but untangling the S28 knot or SDP SS contracts structure is child's play compared to this subject... no one will beat you to it and even if they do, they will have to use your research to do it...)
 
Stephan, one thought I've had about these rifles for awhile now seems to be getting a bit more clarity with the results of your research. All of the LK5 marked rifles/carbines that have been found were all available to the Wehrmacht (through internal supply or by conquest) up to 1943. To the best of my knowledge, there are no LK5 marked Italian rifles or carbines, which wouldn't be available or used as capture weapons until September 1943 (and more like December 1943) at the very earliest. Everything else would have been in inventory before that, and even a Wehrmacht source noted that they hadn't dealt with all of the captured materiel from France by the time of the Yugoslav invasion (April 1941).

I'm not saying you've cracked the code just yet, but a 1943 year of dissolution of the unit in question would fit with the absence of captured Italian weapons in this mix.
 
Paul, thank you very much. My knowledge is limited too and I'm glad here are so many people with real expert knowledge, I think just together we can solve the mystery. You are right, some of it is a little far fetched and I want to offer the full spectrum of possibilities. It's not important for me to be the one who finds the right answer, it's just important to find the answer and I have a good feeling about it.

The German occupation in France is a very interesting topic and I agree with you, most books were written to exaggerate the Resistance, there is not so much about the widespread collaboration. In the last years there was a change and French author deal more with this embarrassing topic. In some cases it's ambivalent, some French did not even know on which side they should be.


Pat, it's good you mention the absence of captured Italian weapons and I also don't know a Italian LK5 marked rifle. It seems the origin of the LK5 marking is before Operation Achse. By the way, the latest LK5 rifle which I know is a K98k "dou 43" in the "k" block.
 
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I have a 1940 Erma that has the "LK5/3" marking.
The story that came with it (I know, without papers is worth whatever you give it) is that a man brought it home after capturing it in France.

Zero import marks. Matching down to the screws. Bolt is electro penciled to match on the top of the handle, safety, cocking piece, and extractor.

Just thought this may help with the France theory?
 

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