Nice K98k maintenance picture
- Thread starter Warrior1354
- Start date
Great pic Warrior!
Actually, this would explain why they didn't get mismatched during cleaning.
"Actually, this would explain why they didn't get mismatched during cleaning."
Trust me Hambone, I was in charge of several ranges and armories in my career and humans make mistakes. Put that many people in that close of a space, with that many parts and things will get switched.
Trust me Hambone, I was in charge of several ranges and armories in my career and humans make mistakes. Put that many people in that close of a space, with that many parts and things will get switched.
tsmgguy
Senior Member
Not in German service. They just didn't make mistakes like that. If they had, and it had been allowed, there would be no matching rifles today.
The jumbling of serial numbers almost invariably happened after capture, when the rifles were "under new management".
I lucked into an all matching byf 42 98k. Before being captured in Italy, it might also have served in North Africa and Sicily. In three years there were probably plenty of opportunities to grab the wrong bolt after cleaning, but it didn't happen.
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I can't disagree that humans make mistakes. However, US firearms of that period to present did not have numbered parts because they could interchange. It was thus not a very big deal to have parts swapped around and even if they were, how could anyone tell? K98k parts were numbered for a reason and meant to stay together for a reason. That is why those men in that picture all have their bolts and bolt parts on their own space in front of them. If those parts were mismatched, it would be seen. If the head NCO picked up your K98k for inspection and the bolt was mismatched he would know it, immediately, and thus your problems started. Bolt matching (headspacing and function) was very important because when K98ks were properly reworked and repaired the bolts were numbered to match.
Did a K98k ever get a mismatched bolt part due to human error or cleaning? Sure it happened. Was it prevalent? Nope. It is but a narrow, statistically irrelevant, minuscule excuse for a mismatched bolt. K98ks got their bolts mismatched primarily by being palletized for surplus sales postwar, IMHO, or careless GIs who didn't care. I've always heard the huge numbers of K98ks were imported palletized, with their bolts removed, as doing so avoided a larger customs duty on the importation of a firearm vs. importation of parts. That I accept far more readily than the subject picture being evidence of the reason for bolt mismatched K98ks. Again, the subject picture to me is greater evidence of bolt mismatching NOT being caused by German wartime use and cleaning.
Cheers,
HB
runner
Senior Member
I would agree, looks like everyone has their bolt parts arranged carefully on a small cloth in front of them. Also under the watchful eyes of a NCO. And as Hambone says unlike M1 Garand parts, all these bolt parts could be easily id'd by sn if their was any question.
The rifles are probably pretty new, judging by the insignia on the NCOs cap, this is a pre or very early war SS-VT unit.
I said my original comment as a bit of sarcastic joke. You have to remember that it is a staged picture in a sterile setting. As soon as the photographer leaves and the CO walks away normal human behavior will commence. Unless there is an actual physical barrier between each parts lot, things will roll and move and get pushed out of the way. Group cleaning sessions in the field are even more prone to misplaced parts. I'm not saying that it is the sole reason for all mismatched parts on military guns but it did and does happen.
It did happen, but not as a general rule or significant explanation for mismatched parts IMHO. The one notable exception perhaps being that the nose cones of G.41s got mixed up like this as the best way to clean them is to soak them in solvent, as in a communal solvent bucket. The pics I've seen of German soldiers cleaning their K98ks in the field, etc., show them cleaning like this, with their pile in front of them, someone else with theirs, etc., sometimes on a table, sometimes in the field. This is not a significant (i.e., it's under 5% or less and I'm being generous) reason for mismatched K98k numbered parts, IMHO.
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mto7464
Senior Member
You don't understand germans very well. Especially of this era. My mother was German, born in Ostpreussen in 1939. Everything must be in order. Everything in our home had its place. Everything was neat. My aunts and uncles were the same.
Peter S
Senior Member
Exactly! My mother (1929) & father (1928), both German, were same way. Actually my father is still that way at 91 years old.
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Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
Jordan, it's a nice bargain buy. 
Why do you think it's a staged picture in a sterile setting? It doesn't look like a staged picture and trust me, the NCO doesn't walk away. If the NCO would have to walk away for some reason, there would be a replacement. Hambone explained it very well and you should read also the comments from the other members about German behavior. Nobody can deny that humans make mistakes and mistakes happened. Like Hambone said, it wasn't prevalent and it's statistically irrelevant.
My grandfather served in the Wehrmacht and my father post war in the German army. I started my service as paratrooper in the late 90's and in the last time I was a armorer. We was talking sometimes about exactly this topic and I can tell you, we did it in the same way. The rifle is "the bride of the soldier" and you don't swap her around. During the cleaning of the rifles I was always supervised and later I always supervised my soldiers. If you put the weapons into the armory, the weapon was checked and also during the field deployment there were regular inspections of the weapons. The condition of the weapons was checked and also whether the parts belonged together, if something was not correct, you got in trouble.
We were already taught in the basic training nothing to swap and nothing to lose. The motto was, "learn by pain". Here is an example from Winter 1997/1998: We marched with around 55 lbs on our back, in addition our personal weapon from our barracks to the training ground, it was a distance of around 11 miles. Before decampment, our equipment and weapons was inspected and checked for completeness. Upon arrival at the training ground, this process was repeated. A soldier from my platoon had forgotten his blank fire device, another soldier from another platoon had forgotten his spoon. These two soldiers and also their responsible NCOs had immediately to march back to our barracks with all the weight on their back, pick up these things and immediately march back to our positions at the training ground. A march of around 33 miles in one night, immediately jump back into hard drill and one week of hard training in the forrest wasn't fun at all. This treatment worked very well and also for all other soldiers. Punish one and train hundreds.
The Army Decree-Sheet published by the Army High Command was just for important orders. Even I was surprised what I found there. There was listed rifles and rifle parts which got swapped, even bayonets where only the scabbard was swapped. Even if soldiers trained together on an training ground and were later very far from each other, the parts were exchanged again. This was not only done in peacetime, I also have evidence from the Sudeten crisis and the Polish campaign. Considering how big the German army was and looking at these listings, there was a average of 5 of these events per month. This already shows how much the soldiers in their units have been supervised and how much the weapons was inspected.
Peter and mto7464, it's the same with my family and me. Everything must be in order and everything has its place, not just the weapons.
Why do you think it's a staged picture in a sterile setting? It doesn't look like a staged picture and trust me, the NCO doesn't walk away. If the NCO would have to walk away for some reason, there would be a replacement. Hambone explained it very well and you should read also the comments from the other members about German behavior. Nobody can deny that humans make mistakes and mistakes happened. Like Hambone said, it wasn't prevalent and it's statistically irrelevant.
My grandfather served in the Wehrmacht and my father post war in the German army. I started my service as paratrooper in the late 90's and in the last time I was a armorer. We was talking sometimes about exactly this topic and I can tell you, we did it in the same way. The rifle is "the bride of the soldier" and you don't swap her around. During the cleaning of the rifles I was always supervised and later I always supervised my soldiers. If you put the weapons into the armory, the weapon was checked and also during the field deployment there were regular inspections of the weapons. The condition of the weapons was checked and also whether the parts belonged together, if something was not correct, you got in trouble.
We were already taught in the basic training nothing to swap and nothing to lose. The motto was, "learn by pain". Here is an example from Winter 1997/1998: We marched with around 55 lbs on our back, in addition our personal weapon from our barracks to the training ground, it was a distance of around 11 miles. Before decampment, our equipment and weapons was inspected and checked for completeness. Upon arrival at the training ground, this process was repeated. A soldier from my platoon had forgotten his blank fire device, another soldier from another platoon had forgotten his spoon. These two soldiers and also their responsible NCOs had immediately to march back to our barracks with all the weight on their back, pick up these things and immediately march back to our positions at the training ground. A march of around 33 miles in one night, immediately jump back into hard drill and one week of hard training in the forrest wasn't fun at all. This treatment worked very well and also for all other soldiers. Punish one and train hundreds.
The Army Decree-Sheet published by the Army High Command was just for important orders. Even I was surprised what I found there. There was listed rifles and rifle parts which got swapped, even bayonets where only the scabbard was swapped. Even if soldiers trained together on an training ground and were later very far from each other, the parts were exchanged again. This was not only done in peacetime, I also have evidence from the Sudeten crisis and the Polish campaign. Considering how big the German army was and looking at these listings, there was a average of 5 of these events per month. This already shows how much the soldiers in their units have been supervised and how much the weapons was inspected.
Peter and mto7464, it's the same with my family and me. Everything must be in order and everything has its place, not just the weapons.
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
Also agree. My mother was born in NRW in 1936 and that's the way it is. Clean, fully functional and right back in it's same place.
mto7464
Senior Member
I found it funny that Meine Mutti would say she organized things because she was lazy and wanted to be as efficient as possible to reduce work. The irony is that she was one of the hardest working women I have ever known. She is missed, died of cancer 5 years ago. Even then she was a stubborn german.
panzertruppe
Active member
Pardon the absence or posts,
But as the grandson of a Leipzig born tool and die maker and equally tedious Vater, son of the Grosse Vater, I don't discount the fastidious nature of the Germans, now or then. But I have the dubious pleasure, or bad luck, of having 2 rifles which nearly match except:
1. 44 dot with all matching parts except 4 parts, the rear barrel band, mag plate, trigger guard and upper handguard section. But, all 4 of these match.
2. My most recent purchase last week, S/243 over 1937 with all matching parts except the bolt housing/handle and the extractor. These 2 parts match, 6121 w, and the rest of the gun and bolt is 1595 e.
moose is still onto something or based on my education in statistics, this is still odd and out of the standard deviation and variance of a mere possibility and I then get the exceptions to the rule, or the bad luck, 2 times... Still great input from the vets here and I too was screamed at while doing this and the Drill/TAC Sergeant was VERY intent on telling us NOT to mix the parts with your buddy's M16, not A1. Seeing this picture brought back MANY fond memories and moose reminded me of the nutroll I dealt with as a soldier and an arms room officer.
As moose attests, as does German culture and attention to detail reiforces, my experiences as an arms room officer, and as a direct participant in these "morale building sessions", it's still possible even if highly unlikely. Or... I'd like tad bit a better explanation than GI Joe switched the parts although that is always an option, more so than a possible mix up at a cleaning session. I think these 2 rifles were field expedient repairs, a rare switch(or woops) by the Truppen(by mistake ONLY), or a very detailed Bubba switch in country or on the battlefield. What say the vets here?
Thanks for the memories and pic... I showed a friend and he was greatly amused as well
.
panzertruppe
But as the grandson of a Leipzig born tool and die maker and equally tedious Vater, son of the Grosse Vater, I don't discount the fastidious nature of the Germans, now or then. But I have the dubious pleasure, or bad luck, of having 2 rifles which nearly match except:
1. 44 dot with all matching parts except 4 parts, the rear barrel band, mag plate, trigger guard and upper handguard section. But, all 4 of these match.
2. My most recent purchase last week, S/243 over 1937 with all matching parts except the bolt housing/handle and the extractor. These 2 parts match, 6121 w, and the rest of the gun and bolt is 1595 e.
moose is still onto something or based on my education in statistics, this is still odd and out of the standard deviation and variance of a mere possibility and I then get the exceptions to the rule, or the bad luck, 2 times... Still great input from the vets here and I too was screamed at while doing this and the Drill/TAC Sergeant was VERY intent on telling us NOT to mix the parts with your buddy's M16, not A1. Seeing this picture brought back MANY fond memories and moose reminded me of the nutroll I dealt with as a soldier and an arms room officer.
As moose attests, as does German culture and attention to detail reiforces, my experiences as an arms room officer, and as a direct participant in these "morale building sessions", it's still possible even if highly unlikely. Or... I'd like tad bit a better explanation than GI Joe switched the parts although that is always an option, more so than a possible mix up at a cleaning session. I think these 2 rifles were field expedient repairs, a rare switch(or woops) by the Truppen(by mistake ONLY), or a very detailed Bubba switch in country or on the battlefield. What say the vets here?
Thanks for the memories and pic... I showed a friend and he was greatly amused as well
.panzertruppe
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