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Thread: K.I. Luger

  1. #1
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    Default K.I. Luger

    An interesting pistol that I obtained several decades ago. There's several different schools of thought on this variation, none have proofed positive. One says 200 were put together for SS Guards while another believes an SS Academy pistol and I'm sure there's other theories.
    I mated it with the holster. The gun came with just the one magazine.
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  2. #2
    Baby Face RyanE's Avatar
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    I would guess that it is not "KI" but "Kl" for HZa Kassel. Very cool early depot Luger.

  3. #3
    No War Eagles For You! mrfarb's Avatar
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    I agree with Ryan, probably a Kassel reworked Luger done in 1933, not SS related at all.

    Funny how the Luger collecting world is out of touch with the depot repair system, I bought a super cool depot rework for the price of a dipped RC Luger not too long ago.


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  4. #4
    I buy capture paper guns ugafx4's Avatar
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    Very interesting luger.

    I will second what Mike said, Luger collectors just don't seem to understand depot reworks. I was staring at an obvious one with a MAJOR luger collector and he said it was trash.

  5. #5
    ax - hole Warrior1354's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfarb View Post
    I agree with Ryan, probably a Kassel reworked Luger done in 1933, not SS related at all.

    Funny how the Luger collecting world is out of touch with the depot repair system, I bought a super cool depot rework for the price of a dipped RC Luger not too long ago.


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    Default 2 KI interpretations - link

    hey folks -

    I'm a P08 guy along with K98Ks and recall an earlier web post at a different site ref the K.I. Lugers.

    [snip]
    There are two theories regarding the Kl. 1933 variation:

    - Jan Still in Weimar & Early Nazi Lugers, believes that these guns were re-worked by Simson & Mauser and Kl is an abbreviation of Konzentrationlager which were issued to the early SA & SS guards at the first concentration camps, probably Dachau. (Page 207). Kl was an early abbreviation for concentration camps. Known guns run from the two digit serial number (11) to four digit numbers. There was also some Simson toggled guns marked with the Kl. 1933

    - Kenyon, Lugers at Random ( Page 234), writes that in 1933 Germany set up a cadet training school for SA and SS officers. Mauser was contracted to rework a few hundred WWI Military Lugers. All of these Lugers were either "DWM" or "Erfurt" marked pieces. Mauser re-worked these guns, removed the original dates and in its place marked them "K.I." "1933". Estimated production was only a few hundred, all the was needed for the school.

    Phoenix Investments interpretation:

    "So you either decide if it is a KI or a Kl. Having seen several of these guns over the last thirty years we have concluded that the Kl theory has more substance since no one can give an address or location for the Kadetten Institut for us to hang our hat on. Not that it didn't exist but there is nothing you can refer to."
    [snip]

    Please see the full text and image of a KI-marked Erfurt P09 sn 589 at:

    http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...172KL11933.htm

    FWIW

    Commisar

  7. #7
    Senior Member mauser1908's Avatar
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    Cool pistol, I think the lack of understanding comes from two reasons. There aren’t a lot of hybrid collectors that have a foot in each camp.

    I think the depot repair system is not as understood due to most Luger problems being fixed by swapping parts at the unit level unless it was something really significant. You see a lot of interwar rebuilds but not a lot that passed through the system during the world wars.

    Most of my experience is with Imperial Era stuff. I would say 70% or more gew 98s passed through the depot system at one time or another. I’ve seen a lot of train wreck Imperial Lugers, not once have I read or or seen one with clear evidence of passing through the depot system. I don’t think the depot system is mentioned at all in the Still’s Imperial Luger. I think the lack of examples has caused a lack of interest and I'm sure the same is true of the Nazi Era. Users were definitely less likely to send their pistols through the repair system even when directed to. You see that with the lack of hold opens on early P08s and the occasional 1906 test gun that surfaces with an intact grip safety.

    It would be a worthy project to trend these.
    Last edited by mauser1908; 06-12-2019 at 08:26 PM.

  8. #8
    No War Eagles For You! mrfarb's Avatar
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    Kassel was an interesting place, a major depot was there during WW1 and WW2 - up until 1926-28 (can't exactly remember) it was spelled Cassel, and was changed to Kassel - no idea why. But, you can find WW1 and interwar Gew.98 rifles marked Cl on the wrist, and later Kl. It seems that Lugers weren't reworked all that much, which makes sense because pistols generally don't see a lot of hard use. Many of the reworks I see are conversions from Artillery models, but my observations could be skewed because I don't research Lugers too deeply, I was just wanting a marked rework variant.

    Anyway, the Kl and date of 1933 fits with the Kassel theme. It's interesting that the top of the chamber was the preferred real estate for marking them as repaired, just like the SS did with the deaths head Lugers. I'm sure it would be an interesting subject, but I can tell you from experience many in the other collecting fields (not singling any specific one out) don't avail themselves to non-community members theories and ideas, so if you do figure something out expect it to be largely dismissed or accepted with tepid interest.
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  9. #9
    "Ach du lieber!" Bigdibbs88's Avatar
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    I agree with the Kassel theory, almost certainly the case. The concentration camp/ss connection again seems to not have much logic especially when compared with the Kassel theory

  10. #10
    No War Eagles For You! mrfarb's Avatar
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    And it appears these are builds and not depot reworks, which is an interesting aspect.
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