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Kar98 opinion

Warrior1354

ax - hole
Kar98b opinion

So this rifle come up for sale and had the chance to purchase it but trying to get opinions on it. It's all matching but the barrel bands are both unnumbered replacements.
 

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Looks good from my iPhone, but I’d rely upon others such as Paul. Sadly someone scalloped the bolt handle to clear a scope tube.
 
I know some of these were made into sniper rifles is there a chance that this one maybe failed the accuracy test after they did that to the bolt. And they never tapped the receiver. I noticed no tap marks on the receiver so I wonder why they did that to the bolt doesn't look like it was recently done.
 
Damn Jordan, thats a nice looking gun, and great markings!

If the price is right, I would try and snag it!
 
Look very close at the rear receiver bridge, particularly the underside with a flex light. The normal way to repair drilling and tapping is with the screws, with the heads ground and polished flush and reblued. Not good to weld on receivers. I’m not familiar with German military scalloping bolt handles to clear scopes. It was common with gunsmiths and garage gumsmiffs. Done properly drill and tap holes can almost be invisible but usually the inside tells it.
 
I saw this rifle at auction a few weeks (or maybe a month) back. To me, someone took a 98b rifle and used a majority of parts to build another rifle using that serial number. The receiver and barrel are new (used) parts added to the bolt/stock from the 98b, and numbered to match the old 98b, probably by Spandau (note "Su28" Spandau inspection at keel). Now, there was some discussion that maybe the 98b had a scope and was decommissioned, with the drilled/tapped action being discarded and replaced with this action. Presumably this was done pre-war or wartime, who knows, but either way it's kinda cool but on the other hand it isn't since the bands are not present (replaced after the fact because they would have been matched at the time). No idea if maybe the scope on the original action was a bubba job (you know, interwar bubba?) and was recovered, hence the bolt grinding, or maybe it was due to a different type of scope henceforth unknown. Either way it doesn't matter, it's cut for clearance. If it had the matching bands you would have never seen it for sale as I would already own it. :)
 
Show is slow he's asking $2250. And that Su marking is there. Stock is duffle cut and the hand guard matches. Marked with a simson proof on top.
 
Show is slow he's asking $2250. And that Su marking is there. Stock is duffle cut and the hand guard matches. Marked with a simson proof on top.

Way too much. To me it's a $900 rifle tops, I think that is what he got it for at auction.
 
Yeah I think he's stuck at that price tag unfortunately I'm going to pass on this rifle even though how much I want it. Like you said it's not a true Simson made kar98b.

Has a really nice stock though. Damn I hope I don't regret this lol!
 
It’s better to regret something you did than regret not doing it.....unless you end up with a permanent STD or have to sell it at a significant loss. I don’t think this rifle is going to give you a STD, but you may take a hit on it if you upgrade. I don’t think that bolt scalloping is military. Something is up with that.
 
Thought i would clean this up...

$2250 is way too much, especially with these pictures... for a rifle this complex, you really need more & better pictures.

I assume the stock acceptance is e/33 and e/46, this and the manner in which the stock is marked implies this is a production stock (meaning it is normal production, not a rework or re-barrel or a Simson supplied ordnance stock), generally falling in the range of normal Simson d-e block production; this would mean Simson cycled recycled receivers through normal production, which to date no evidence suggests they ever did this, nor would they, they were ready suppliers of ordnance spares to the ordnance system, not "users" of that system. (They supplied spare receivers, not used them - Simson by 1928 had the capability of making 6,000 rifles and 600 MG's a month and this could be increased to 15,000 rifles and 15,000 MG's with the proper resources. This an IAMCC report). There is no reason to believe Simson needed or wanted to recycle receivers or make more rifles than they contracted for and everything suggests Simson made rifles at a steady deliberate pace, far below capability and probably less enthusiastically than other commercial firms would have. Which is probably why they were chosen, probably the smallest, most able (in house) company among those that made the G98 during the war and probably the most loyal to the new Republic (they certainly weren't reactionary...) Seems unlikely they would recycle illegal rifles or receivers.

I am not a "Simson did reworks" (or salvages) advocate, they may have in rare cases, but I see no reason why they would in general and no example has ever been documented... The Germans possessed ordnance facilities very early on, we know this because the IAMCC complained about them, later they grew in number, first Kassel and Spandau supporting the two commands the Reichsheer established. Later Königsberg and there is evidence that smaller operations existed in a number of former Imperial era facilities, mostly in the east where all the action occurred or was expected.. the German report that details the evolution of the Kar.98k, the path taken to develop this shortened Kar.98b (for that is all a Kar.98k is, a Kar.98b shortened six inches - as John Wall once so aptly described it, indeed that was what the Germany Army experimented with in the late 1920's), states that Simson was deemed undesirable because they would cost too much to do the work of conversions, and that most of the Reichsheer ordnance facilities would need modernizing to participate in the program. These experiments occurred in 1929, but this rifle if as advertised would probably date earlier (by stk acceptance and BC - but not the FP which is post-Simson) around the late d-block of Simson 98b production.

Without the RR and clear pictures of the acceptance stamps little can be said with certainty, but a few relevant pictures would go a long way to explaining what is shown. For one if this is a 98b stock, the buttplate would have the serial w/suffix, further if Simson did recycle a receiver the RR would offer evidence of its utilization. While the barrel roughly correlates to the d-e block of normal production, the FP is absolutely wrong for any Simson work. The barreled receiver is simply wrong for the stock... Pictures of the RS is also a must for any evaluation, while it is highly doubtful to date or connect to Simson in any case (most Republican era rifles have subsequent RS updates) it may offer clues to the re-barrel's actual installer (which wasn't Simson, whatever this is, Simson did not FP that barrel..).

Something like this would have to be analysed part by part and just the barrel FP issue alone is enough to exclude it from the stock mating connection (they were not done at the same time). More than likely this is a re-barreled Spandau/16, that caught the eye of some astute and semi-knowledgeable collector, who had a 98b stock that he thought would go well together due to the Simson components.
 
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Way too much. To me it's a $900 rifle tops, I think that is what he got it for at auction.

Yes thats what this sold for $900 plus Buyer Premium . Jordan , Mike , Wolfgang and I were discussing this Rifle before auction took place . It was bought at Jonny`s Auction . It an interesting Rifle but certainly not at the new owners asking price . Best Regards
 
Thanks guys for all of the info provided my gut was telling me to pass on it. And by the sound of it I made the right choice.

I kept running all of the options through my head. It has mismatched parts, why was a Spandau receiver used, the stock is duffle cut, the bolt is milled out why, etc. Too much money for what it was, is the solution that kept coming to mind. The seller did state he bought it out of an old collection but from what has been said it was not. The original asking price was $3,000 but after alot of talking he came down $2250.

But as I stated before I really do appreciate you all discussing this rifle with me, and thank you Paul for all the info provided.

Have to say got really excited with this one. From a distance I went no freaking way a Simson Kar98b for sale, but when you get up close you started seeing problems. Like the hot chick you see off in the distance until you get up close to her and realize she was not as hot as you were expecting. :laugh:

So in the end lets look at the bright side at least I'm getting closer to finding that nice Kar98b for sale!
 
Asked was whether this could be a mating by HZa Spandau, yes, this is a possibility, really the only possibility for an authentic mating. It would be uncommon and it would require a detailed examination of all the components. Although unusual, this should have been mentioned earlier, - this rifle shouldn't be judged a fraud based upon these pictures alone. It is not Simson made, but it is quite possible this was a HZa use of a salvaged 98b stock.

I will say that comparisons of the fonts on the receiver and barrel (which are alike) differ from a normal Spandau/16 in the d-block. The pictures are too poor to be sure of much, but it is probable the receiver serial was re-numbered (as how do they match the barrel's perfectly when the barrel is not factory). I suppose that lends credibility to the HZa Spandau being the origins of the mating, anyway, the only thing for sure is that it is impossible to authenticate or even be confident in an assessment with these pictures alone.

A very strange rifle...o
 

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