Amberg 1904

This is another one that I've had for a few years and never posted photos when I received it. This one is already documented here, I'll do some of the internals in a few days. This rifle had a barrel and bolt replacement done at Ingolstadt.

Receiver SN: 562
Barrel SN: 562, Barrel Code: BJ 121
Front sight SN: 62
Rear sight SN: 62
Sight Slider SN: 62
Ejector box SN: 62
Trigger Sear SN: 62
Front barrel band SN: 62
Rear barrel band SN: 62
Trigger guard SN: 562
Trigger guard screws SN: 62, 88
Floor Plate SN: 62
Follower SN: 62
Stock SN: 562
Handguard SN: 562
Buttplate SN: 9640
Bayonet lug SN: 62
Bolt body SN: 2856 f, Armorer's Renumber 562
Extractor SN: 56
Safety SN: 56
Cocking piece SN: 56
Bolt sleeve SN: 56
Firing pin SN: 56

Great looking Amberg made Gew98 Sam!

Warrior1354 said:

Great looking Amberg made Gew98 Sam!

Click to expand...

Thanks Jordan I appreciate it!

Pretty nice rifle, and I agree re-barrel, though the barrel fonts are very tight with the receivers. While BC's for early Amberg's are next to nonexistent, perhaps half a dozen "complete" original barrel recordings for the entire pre-war period, the FP, acceptance and BC are later in style.

But what has me a little baffled is the stock, that stock screams DWM, the C/Y acceptance (wrist/lower) is almost always DWM work, the cypher is Prussian or at least counterstruck Prussian, maybe the stock salvaged off a DWM at Ingolstadt? (I see the 8/M buttplate from other recordings of this rifle); I can't see DWM recycling a Amberg receiver into regular production during 1915/16 (to get this pattern it would have to be applied at a factory or arsenal, depots wouldn't apply a cypher or extensive acceptance), but the stock acceptance is perfect for late 1915 (4 others exactly like it late 15 - early 16, a dozen others with shared characteristics, plus the C/Y is next to inseparable, or a constant, with wartime DWM).

The only pictures of the internals, show a Bavarian barrel, I assume Ingolstadt's work, doesn't follow the few pre-war patterns or acceptance one would associate with Amberg/04. The stock "seems" unserialed internally, is this true or just the bad photograph? Clearly the stock doesn't look scrubbed of a prior serial, so probably original to this rifle, but why the DWM style acceptance and Prussian cypher?

What follows are two DWM/15 with near identical stock acceptance patterns, I have nothing close to match among Amberg anything. What struck me at first was the C/Y, which as said before, is almost synonymous with wartime DWM 1915-1916, that and the Prussian cypher which seems out of place on a Bavarian rifle reworked through Ingolstadt (Bavaria). None of this is conclusive, but its pretty strange, Mike took good pictures of the rifle when he bought it in 2004, but they weren't thorough or internal, I have the BC though its pretty poor photography, but decipherable.

DWM/15 u-block

DWM/15 u-block

DWM/15 w-block

I owned this rifle, bought it from BruceK in 2003-2004, about the same time Mike bought this Amberg at auction. Back then cameras sucked even though the one I had was a Sony and cost over $1k! I took lousy pictures of the rifle, here are a few of them...

I think the patterns are next to identical.

​

I have a Amberg 1904 dated Gew 98 Serial number 151; It is mostly all matching except for cleaning rod which is numbered 08 and front band which is numbered 98. It has 3 marks on the butt plate which I don't know what they mean. Above the rifle ser. no on buttplate it looks like a I and under it a F and under the ser. number it looks like a 8. What do these marks mean? Thank you 30thguy

Post some photos of them, markings on the butt plate are generally either the serial number or numbers indicating it passed through a depot. It was probably an Ingolstadt rework with the numbers being the personnel who performed the work.

It would be of interest to everyone here to see the rifle. Especially the photos of the right butt stock, the right receiver, firing proof and barrel code.

Paul thanks for the great info, here are some photos of the internals. Earlier you mentioned (while unlikely) about the possibility of this being a DWM recycle. I think you will find these photos interesting. The stock is in fact is un-numbered internally which I think without a shadow of a doubt proves you're correct that this is a DWM made stock. I have owned and seen several internally un-numbered 1915 DWMs. The other part that is more interesting is that there are assembly numbers on the barrel, receiver, trigger guard and floor plate. To my knowledge, and based on the disassembled Amberg guns here, they didn't use assembly numbers (I just pulled my 1918 Amberg apart and it doesn't have them as well). I very well could be wrong, I think this could be a DWM recycle.

1904 Amberg 151/b

I have a 151/b recorded, here are the auction details (it would be good to get better pictures, especially the stock and right receiver):


GERMAN GEW 98 1904 WWI MAUSER *ALL MATCHING*
Auction # 480533360

This item has been Sold!
________________________________________



Current Bid $680.00 No Reserve!
Started at $0.01

Quantity 1 # of bids 8 Bid History

Time left Listing has Ended
15 minute rule
Location Lake Wales, FL 33898
Start 4/26/2015 1:47:09 PM ET (This is a 14 day auction)

Ends On or After 5/10/2015 1:47:09 PM ET (GunBroker.com Official Time)


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86yota.863 NR (This is a new seller with no feedback)
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Weight 13.00 Pounds
Inspection Period / Return Policy Unspecified
Item Condition Used
Requires FFL? Yes
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Characteristics for Item # 480533360


Manufacturer: Other Manufacturer
Model: Other Model
Caliber: 8mm




Description for Item # 480533360


VERY NICE GUN ALL MATCHING NUMBERS. DONT MISS THIS DEAL AS IT IS SELING AT NO RESERVE!!! PLEASE CONTACT ME WITH ANY QUESTIONS OR MORE PICTURES! THANKS



Pictures for Item # 480533360

I still am uncertain, the stock and assembly numbers are excellent evidence there is a DWM connection, however, I need to think it over with a few more BLM beers before I get bold enough to call it on such a strange rifle....

Actually I need to look through my files for Amberg conducting assembly with assembly numbers first, I am unsure whether they used them or not, - if anyone would have, Amberg would have, the fact the best rifle manufacturers (DWM) used them, means the possibility the best state arsenal might have as well. I generally have a low opinion of theories where commercial firms conduct reworks, - we know the Suhl start ups did them (builds actually), we also know Mauser tinkered with a similar program, with a version of a sterngewehr, but generally, commercial firms were "nominally" independent (during war there is no such thing as capitalism, free enterprise or private property or individual rights... which is why every American should be wary of calls for wars and intervention, - it is a ploy to distract and centralize power in the central government, - it almost always employs distortions and deceit to achieve this goal/public support) and "generally" commercial firms operated outside of the ordnance/depot system, once rifles were made commercial firms played no part in "fixing and repairing", unless it is determined a subsequent defect in workmanship that was their responsibility.

mauser1908 said:

I very well could be wrong, I think this could be a DWM recycle.

Click to expand...

Paul, thanks for the great info. Really looking forward to hearing about this one. I would like the rifle even more if it was a recycled barreled action seeing as I collect the non standard stuff.

Loewe said:

I still am uncertain, the stock and assembly numbers are excellent evidence there is a DWM connection, however, I need to think it over with a few more BLM beers before I get bold enough to call it on such a strange rifle....

Actually I need to look through my files for Amberg conducting assembly with assembly numbers first, I am unsure whether they used them or not, - if anyone would have, Amberg would have, the fact the best rifle manufacturers (DWM) used them, means the possibility the best state arsenal might have as well. I generally have a low opinion of theories where commercial firms conduct reworks, - we know the Suhl start ups did them (builds actually), we also know Mauser tinkered with a similar program, with a version of a sterngewehr, but generally, commercial firms were "nominally" independent (during war there is no such thing as capitalism, free enterprise or private property or individual rights... which is why every American should be wary of calls for wars and intervention, - it is a ploy to distract and centralize power in the central government, - it almost always employs distortions and deceit to achieve this goal/public support) and "generally" commercial firms operated outside of the ordnance/depot system, once rifles were made commercial firms played no part in "fixing and repairing", unless it is determined a subsequent defect in workmanship that was their responsibility.

Click to expand...

The limitations of trends... 92 Amberg/15's, only three show below the stock, none show clearly whether they have assembly numbers. A perfect illustration of why Imperial BC studies get nowhere... no one takes pictures below the stock, 3 BC's for all of Amberg/15!

Luckily, 1916 is more plentiful and Amberg doesn't seem to employ assembly numbers during the war. Thing is, in searching pre-war production they do replicate your patterns, Wolfgang owned or shared pictures of a Amberg/05 with near identical patterns, placement and style.

I think it is time we reconsider whether this is the original barrel or not, I think it very well is, the serial fonts are next to identical, the acceptance is right for this range (matches Wolfgang's 05) and C/R is absolutely pre-war acceptance, only a short period in 1915 was it employed... the different FP styles is true of Wolfgang's 05 also, - not sure of how to put this jigsaw together, but I think it is more than probable this is the original barrel or one installed near the time of mfg. Do more of the RS sleeve and any markings on the barrel? Wolfgang's has the serial struck on the front of the RS sleeve lower retainer, you nor Mike showed this area and I am curious whether your is consistent, probably not or you would have photographed such a obvious marking.

Anyway, the hazards of speculation based upon limited information. Simple fact is Imperials are far less well documented across the board, there has never been a forum specifically dedicated to their study, my old Gunboards thread and here is it, and the fact that I started trends work in 1998-99 for Imperials, about a year or two earlier than 98k and the disparity of the results shows how much a challenge it is to get good data to populate a study. I probably have three times the data on 98k and 20 times the numbers of BC's for 98k, probably more than that, my 98k BC trends is over 100 pages long, my Imperial BC trends is probably in the teen's...

Paul, the only other markings on the rear sight sleeve are at the bottom of it. It's marked B11 with two additional acceptance characters. These are soft strikes and hard to say what they are. Happy about the likely barrel originality, I always assumed it was a replacement. Could it have been possible that the barrel and receiver had different proofing officers? Each with a slightly different proof? Do you think the stock just may be an anomaly? I don't suspect anything nefarious happened in this rifle's history, given the hardware matches and the condition also matches the rest of the gun over all. The odds of someone finding an exact match on three digits would be extremely tough. I don't think there would have been a factory accepted stock without a serial number where someone could add it.

I would think if it was swapped at a depot and they were luck enough to have an un-numbered stock and the new number added, it wouldn't have its right buttstock acceptance acceptance either.

Here are a few photos.

Also when I mentioned about two different proofing officers, this is why I thought this could be the case. Here is my 1917 DWM P08 this pattern is common on 1916 and 1917 dated lugers. An Erfurt proofing officer was marking their barrels at one point in time.

Sometimes you simply can't answer the how, or who and when, - at least for now. But, I am pretty sure that stock is wartime DWM, it doesn't fit anything else.

The contrast between the receiver and barrel, and the FP's of course, makes me question some of my assumptions, and I can't explain how a DWM factory stock (not ordnance spare) came to be on a Ingolstadt repaired rifle (they could have done nothing but clean it up or a complete overhaul...), however there is no question the rifle is authentic. No one could imagined this or thought they could profit from such a mating...

Perhaps, DWM did engage is some recycling early on, they had enormous capacity, easily matching any other single facility, firms in the midst of change or preparing for a war footing might do things they otherwise might not consider. Once they canceled contracts and took on military production there was a period where some men would be idle, but who can say, - look at the SUhl Consortium, they sure as hell recycled old receiver in 1915 and this lingered into 1916. DWM would have had a much larger problem, though much of their resources could be moved to P08 and MG production?

All speculation, but I am sure of two things, convinced anyway, that stock is DWM and the rifle is genuine.

Great to see this rifle again, and the fascinating discussion around it. I had always figured hat it was among the 1904 Ambergs that Dr. Storz mentions were sent to Prussia, but the DWM restocking makes more sense really.

My only input here is that the fireproof on the barrel does look (to me) like the later lion, which seems to have stood up at some point, but I have not seen enough examples to tell around when the lion fireproof changed.

Loewe said:

Sometimes you simply can't answer the how, or who and when, - at least for now. But, I am pretty sure that stock is wartime DWM, it doesn't fit anything else.

The contrast between the receiver and barrel, and the FP's of course, makes me question some of my assumptions, and I can't explain how a DWM factory stock (not ordnance spare) came to be on a Ingolstadt repaired rifle (they could have done nothing but clean it up or a complete overhaul...), however there is no question the rifle is authentic. No one could imagined this or thought they could profit from such a mating...

Perhaps, DWM did engage is some recycling early on, they had enormous capacity, easily matching any other single facility, firms in the midst of change or preparing for a war footing might do things they otherwise might not consider. Once they canceled contracts and took on military production there was a period where some men would be idle, but who can say, - look at the SUhl Consortium, they sure as hell recycled old receiver in 1915 and this lingered into 1916. DWM would have had a much larger problem, though much of their resources could be moved to P08 and MG production?

All speculation, but I am sure of two things, convinced anyway, that stock is DWM and the rifle is genuine.

Click to expand...

Great info Paul, that would be something if this is a DWM recycle, in fact I like the gun more due to that possibility. I think it would be an extremely hard study to perform but I bet there's others out there.

PrayingMantis said:

Great to see this rifle again, and the fascinating discussion around it. I had always figured hat it was among the 1904 Ambergs that Dr. Storz mentions were sent to Prussia, but the DWM restocking makes more sense really.

My only input here is that the fireproof on the barrel does look (to me) like the later lion, which seems to have stood up at some point, but I have not seen enough examples to tell around when the lion fireproof changed.

Click to expand...

It's one of my favorites.

[That's the rifle I bought. It is in very good shape. Just took a little cleaning,nothing damaging to patina.I will try to post some pictures later. It is the second Amberg I have owned. I still have a 1917 dated one which is a old American legion gun with plugged barrel with mismatched bolt with face of it ground off,but still had the matching cleaning rod. 30thguy

QUOTE=Loewe;270463]I have a 151/b recorded, here are the auction details (it would be good to get better pictures, especially the stock and right receiver):


GERMAN GEW 98 1904 WWI MAUSER *ALL MATCHING*
Auction # 480533360

This item has been Sold!
________________________________________



Current Bid $680.00 No Reserve!
Started at $0.01

Quantity 1 # of bids 8 Bid History

Time left Listing has Ended
15 minute rule
Location Lake Wales, FL 33898
Start 4/26/2015 1:47:09 PM ET (This is a 14 day auction)

Ends On or After 5/10/2015 1:47:09 PM ET (GunBroker.com Official Time)


Seller
86yota.863 NR (This is a new seller with no feedback)
View the feedback of this seller | View seller's other auctions | Add seller to Favorite Sellers List |
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Winning Bidder
Redled A+(21)

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Sales Tax Seller does not collect sales tax
Shipping Buyer pays actual shipping costs for the following option(s): Other
No international shipments.
See Item Description.
Weight 13.00 Pounds
Inspection Period / Return Policy Unspecified
Item Condition Used
Requires FFL? Yes
Seller Tools Use our Tools for Sellers page to modify this listing, add to the description, close this auction, relist this item, submit feedback, and otherwise manage your listings.
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The seller of this item assumes all responsibility for this listing. You must contact the seller to resolve any questions or concerns beforeplacing a bid. Payment must be made using U.S. dollars ($) unless otherwise stated in the listing. Firearms may only be shipped to a licensed dealer (FFL Holder). Some listed items may not be legal in every state. Click here for details on how to complete your purchase within the law.

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Seller: 86yota.863

Buyer: Redled Quantity: 1
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The Seller should contact each winning bidder (the Buyer) with information on the total cost of the purchase including shipping and sales tax if applicable. The Seller should tell the Buyer where to send payment and what payment methods are acceptable. The Buyer must send payment directly to the Seller. If the item is a modern firearm, the Buyer (or the Buyer's firearms transfer dealer) must send a signed FFL copy to the Seller. The Buyer should provide the FFL information to the Seller within fourteen (14) calendar days. Failure to provide proper FFL information in time may result in the Buyer receiving negative feedback and/or a Non-Paying Bidder warning, either of which can lead to suspension, and the Buyer will lose their rights as the winning bidder. Once payment is received the seller will ship the item to the buyer, or to the Buyer's transfer dealer (FFL) in the case of modern firearms. This auction is a binding contract between the Seller and the Buyer(s).
If the Seller is unable to contact a Buyer within five (5) calendar days of the end of the auction, the Buyer forfeits his/her rights as a winning bidder. A Buyer who fails to complete a transaction may receive negative feedback and/or a Non-Paying Bidder warning, either of which can lead to suspension from GunBroker.com.


Characteristics for Item # 480533360


Manufacturer: Other Manufacturer
Model: Other Model
Caliber: 8mm




Description for Item # 480533360


VERY NICE GUN ALL MATCHING NUMBERS. DONT MISS THIS DEAL AS IT IS SELING AT NO RESERVE!!! PLEASE CONTACT ME WITH ANY QUESTIONS OR MORE PICTURES! THANKS



Pictures for Item # 480533360[/QUOTE]