Third Party Press

Very Unusual Mauser

geladen

geladen

Well-known member
I have a 7X57 DWM M1907 short rifle with a 22 inch barrel, the same length as the Chilean M1895 and M1912 short rifles. The only reference to it that I can find anywhere is in a 1911 ALFA catalog. It came from SAMCO in the final auction. I suspect it was imported from Chile because it has a Chilean M1912 short rifle bolt (bent handle).

The rifle has no bayonet lug and no provision for a cleaning rod. The s/n is 252 with commercial proofs. The rear sight and short handguard with a spring clip are unique. This is the only example of which I am aware.

Can anyone offer additional information on this rifle?
 

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204 views and no replies in 12 days. I am beginning to think this is the only example of this model known to still exist.

That statement should be worth some kind of reply.
 
Last edited:
Bill, I actually did compose a reply, but the rifle I had in mind is a little different and this subject is really John Wall's turf, - you are a few years tardy getting real help... Gunboards-Mauser is probably the only hope for answers, maybe TP, JohnS or Doc can help. Mostly what I was going to reply revolved around a discussion John Wall started with me and Craig in 2012-2013, a similar rifle, but in the end I felt the similarities were not enough and would not aid in a search for answers, as CB came to the conclusion John's rifle was a Wehrmannsgewehr, though I got the impression John was less sure.

Anyway, some similarities but major differences too. I have a few files on about 10 rifles similar to yours, none the same, most DWM commercial production, one sort or another, but as everyone knows DWM records are pretty non-existent, some of the more "hungry" (resourceful and determined) DWM collectors (almost all P08 collectors since John Wall passed away, he really was the only good DWM rifleman) have discovered good general information, regarding factories openings, closings, the men involved, expansions; Jon Speed has provided invaluable production schedules and general dates and numbers to which nations, but no one seems to know much about the intricacies of these small orders and their customers. From recollection, John Wall felt South America in the few cases he commented, but that was nearly two weeks ago I went through my files regarding this "general" variation (everyone is a little different from one another, most I only saved pictures of to stay "competitive" with John Wall, in case he asked me a question... generally when you want to be on the list of people collectors like CB or JW email when they have questions, you need to be able to offer some sort of an opinion, and good opinions are derived from knowledge, which in German rifles generally translates to "trends" work, - because there are so few surviving documents I have found the best course is to establish a database of examples which collectively can offer clues and maybe even answers)
 
By means nowhere near an expert on these. I did find a thread on AR15.com (the authority on Mauser rifles don't ya know). The guy pictures a rifle very similar to yours and it also came from the Samco auction. He claims that Alfa had DWM make these rifles up and then offered them for sale as an "off the shelf" solution for those who needed some rifles in a hurry. Here's the link and you can take it FWIW

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/ALFA-DWM-1907-Mauser-Carbine--Rare-Mauser-/14-472441/

Neat little carbine by the way.
 
I think everyone that had input gave it when you originally posted here:
https://forums.gunboards.com/showth...-DWM-M1907-Short-Rifle-and-Brazilian-Carbines

And then again here:
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1087243-Chilean-M1907-Short-Rifle-7X57

Lots of good opinions and comments.

It may be the only example remaining, or next week one will pop up at auction that will change your thoughts. I am sure somewhere in a scrap heap in South America a few more languish waiting to be shipped to China.

I think going forward new documentation will continue to be available. Ultimately to know for sure, further research into the financial and trade histories of the South American countries will reveal the trail that may allow future researchers to narrow down possible history.

Have you approached Mr. Nielsen about the rifle? He spent some time in Chile doing research, whether he was able to do any research into the countries financial history would be a good question. I think my first area of research would be retailers in Chile that carried DWM products, and who the main representative there was.
 
gewehr hund said:
By means nowhere near an expert on these. I did find a thread on AR15.com (the authority on Mauser rifles don't ya know). The guy pictures a rifle very similar to yours and it also came from the Samco auction. He claims that Alfa had DWM make these rifles up and then offered them for sale as an "off the shelf" solution for those who needed some rifles in a hurry. Here's the link and you can take it FWIW

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/ALFA-DWM-1907-Mauser-Carbine--Rare-Mauser-/14-472441/

Neat little carbine by the way.
Click to expand...

That looked like it could be interesting but the post is the same short rifle by the previous owner. It bears no relation except caliber to Brazilian carbines.
 
Loewe said:
Bill, I actually did compose a reply, but the rifle I had in mind is a little different and this subject is really John Wall's turf, - you are a few years tardy getting real help... Gunboards-Mauser is probably the only hope for answers, maybe TP, JohnS or Doc can help. Mostly what I was going to reply revolved around a discussion John Wall started with me and Craig in 2012-2013, a similar rifle, but in the end I felt the similarities were not enough and would not aid in a search for answers, as CB came to the conclusion John's rifle was a Wehrmannsgewehr, though I got the impression John was less sure.

Anyway, some similarities but major differences too. I have a few files on about 10 rifles similar to yours, none the same, most DWM commercial production, one sort or another, but as everyone knows DWM records are pretty non-existent, some of the more "hungry" (resourceful and determined) DWM collectors (almost all P08 collectors since John Wall passed away, he really was the only good DWM rifleman) have discovered good general information, regarding factories openings, closings, the men involved, expansions; Jon Speed has provided invaluable production schedules and general dates and numbers to which nations, but no one seems to know much about the intricacies of these small orders and their customers. From recollection, John Wall felt South America in the few cases he commented, but that was nearly two weeks ago I went through my files regarding this "general" variation (everyone is a little different from one another, most I only saved pictures of to stay "competitive" with John Wall, in case he asked me a question... generally when you want to be on the list of people collectors like CB or JW email when they have questions, you need to be able to offer some sort of an opinion, and good opinions are derived from knowledge, which in German rifles generally translates to "trends" work, - because there are so few surviving documents I have found the best course is to establish a database of examples which collectively can offer clues and maybe even answers)
Click to expand...

I have a suspicion that it was designed as a police weapon rather than military. The commercial proofing, lack of bayonet lug and cleaning rod plus no side swivels leads me in that direction. I suspect DWM made a few, found them not to be popular, and dumped them on ALFA. Since mine is s/n 252, I would guess there were at least 300 made. I wonder what happened to the other 299?
 
Fal Grunt said:
I think everyone that had input gave it when you originally posted here:
https://forums.gunboards.com/showth...-DWM-M1907-Short-Rifle-and-Brazilian-Carbines

And then again here:
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1087243-Chilean-M1907-Short-Rifle-7X57

Lots of good opinions and comments.

It may be the only example remaining, or next week one will pop up at auction that will change your thoughts. I am sure somewhere in a scrap heap in South America a few more languish waiting to be shipped to China.

I think going forward new documentation will continue to be available. Ultimately to know for sure, further research into the financial and trade histories of the South American countries will reveal the trail that may allow future researchers to narrow down possible history.

Have you approached Mr. Nielsen about the rifle? He spent some time in Chile doing research, whether he was able to do any research into the countries financial history would be a good question. I think my first area of research would be retailers in Chile that carried DWM products, and who the main representative there was.
Click to expand...

I did not attempt to contact Mr. Nielsen; there was no hint of anything like that in his book. The only things that might connect my short rifle to Chile is the M1912 Chilean short rifle bolt in it and the fact that SAMCO imported a lot from Chile - but the bolt could have been put in it at SAMCO after they got the rifle from somewhere else. The story I was told is that it came out of SAMCO with that bolt in it.

As for Gunboards, there was a fair amount of discussion there but no real answers - which is why I thought I would try here.
 
“I saw talks on the 98k site in pre ww1 items under unusual mauser by mr. Geladen. As for dealers who handeled mauser and dwm products to south america the main german dealer that ordered many small lots of carbines designated as cavalry models in the 1906-.1914 period was karl schmidt a close friend of paul mauser. Schmidts family business was based in brazil and orgnized buys for police groups and other such forces. Mauser and dwm more or less shared similar configured models. As for bayonet lug bulit into front ring these were often milled down if no bayonets were required etc. I have shown mauser glass plate images that displayed cav carbines for brazil with and without bayonet lugs on front ring quite some time ago on gb site where these first started that were very close to mr. Geladen example so no no reason to argue over tiny configuration aspects. Mauser and dwm also used up any inventory parts on hand when small orders came along etc. John wall and i discussed this subject long ago privately. Also arms depicted in period catalogs were not always accurate so confusion exists in some cases. Regards Jon Speed”
 
FG, Thanks for posting Jon Speed's comments from Gunboards, I rarely go there and even less post.

While anyone is free to post questions on 19th century and early 20th century German commercial rifles, or regarding some of the earlier variations before the M71 came on the scene, the truth of the matter is they should have low expectations to getting knowledgeable replies. The loss of John Wall and Craig Brown essentially wiped out the intelligent (knowledgeable) discussion on these topics. Jon Speed naturally was the source for much of the knowledge that existed then and today, it hadn't occurred to me to ask him regarding this subject... but I probably wouldn't have as I try not to pester him these days. (one could spend the whole day bombarding him with questions no one else can answer...)

Fal Grunt said:
“I saw talks on the 98k site in pre ww1 items under unusual mauser by mr. Geladen. As for dealers who handeled mauser and dwm products to south america the main german dealer that ordered many small lots of carbines designated as cavalry models in the 1906-.1914 period was karl schmidt a close friend of paul mauser. Schmidts family business was based in brazil and orgnized buys for police groups and other such forces. Mauser and dwm more or less shared similar configured models. As for bayonet lug bulit into front ring these were often milled down if no bayonets were required etc. I have shown mauser glass plate images that displayed cav carbines for brazil with and without bayonet lugs on front ring quite some time ago on gb site where these first started that were very close to mr. Geladen example so no no reason to argue over tiny configuration aspects. Mauser and dwm also used up any inventory parts on hand when small orders came along etc. John wall and i discussed this subject long ago privately. Also arms depicted in period catalogs were not always accurate so confusion exists in some cases. Regards Jon Speed”
Click to expand...
 
Mr. Speed actually saw the post here, he scans these forums, and emailed me about the post. He and I had discussed the rifle previously when it was posted on gunboards.

I will never fill John Walls shoes, but I try to learn from Mr.Speed whenever the opportunity presents itself. Likewise as time and money is available I have taken trips for research in the hopes of finding new, or confirming evidence, in primary sources.

I have mentioned to Mr. Speed that I hope in the future to do more work on the various small Mauser sales and contracts. If things progress as they are today this may happen in the next decade, but I won’t hold my breath. You know better than most that primary documents and source material are hard won and scarce. Without Mr.Speed and many others, who are willing to share and disseminate the sources and information that they have, yourself included, our hobby and interests may hardly exist.
 
A Conclusion of Sorts

Guessing doesn't really do much good, but - given that - I will guess that my M1907 short rifle was likely in a small quantity of guns sold pre WWII to some Chilean governmental or police agency. Then it found its way into the other guns imported by SARCO from Chile. The only quasi-evidence for this is the Chilean bolt found in the M1907 and the SAMCO import mark. I would like to know something more authentic but such evidence may never appear.
 
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