Third Party Press

Any Reliable Gun Sales Sites?

w4zmb

Member
Seeing just these last two of many humped guns for sale, was wondering if anyone has gun sales web sites that they have trust in to pretty much do the right thing? i fully realize it's " buyer beware" out there but was hoping to hear of some companies that are better than others in your opinion.

I thought Simpson's was okay until "chrisftk" brought this to us :http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?36958-Questionable-G-24(t) which as of this morning is still for sale with no disclosure of even the "possibility" that it is fake. Thanks again for this "chrisftk"!

Makes me wonder about the rest of their guns for sale now. Where is the logic is putting a few bucks ahead of reputation? If it were my company I'd take the loss & put it on my web site "not for sale" as an example of a possible bad gun and give my customers a heads up learning example. They'd be a hero instead of a zero.

Will say at least this site pulled the gun: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?37120-Humped-SS-Conversion, so many thanks to "Bigdibbs88" for this.
 
The short answer is no, with the vast amount of items offered there is absolutely no way for anyone to know every detail and variation possible, many times dealers buy guns that are bad unknowingly, it’s what happens after they are inspected/outed that defines their reputation. It’s best to simply ask here or PM someone to prevent bad purchases until you learn enough to become reasonably comfortable. Even then there are oddities and variations that pop up all the time and are best run past a collective knowledge. Best to get multiple opinions too as we’re all human, and everyone on here has been wrong at
some point :biggrin1:
 
Reliable dealer sites? NO

Every one of them has done the wrong thing at one time or another when they had the chance to do the right thing. I personally brought to at least two of their attentions that what they were selling was not legit, yet the item remained for sale, and sold to some poor sucker. One of the dealers I thought would have pulled the items, but didn't.

You want reliable buy here on this forum only. Gunboards has their pansy no chit chat rule with Little Charlie on a power Trip enforcing it. This no chit chat includes not being able to call something out as a turd.

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And don't think it is just K98k that are humped. At this point half the Finns being traded are suspect (same dealer had half a dozen with renumbered bolts), saw a Belgian FN-49 with replacement stock numbered to match a couple weeks ago, Enfields collectors encourage refinishing to original and renumbering to match, American collectors have no issue with making a rifle correct and selling it as such, French MAS number doesn't match swap it with unumbered replacement part and call a bolt matching only rifle matching. Just saw someone yesterday call a bolt matching only rifle matching (other parts not numbered) matching. It's a minefield and at one point you are likely to get burned. What separates a good collector from bad is not passing on the beating to someone else but documenting that it was a humped rifle.

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Yup no end to the hump jobs for profit. Certainly pays to check this forum for correct examples. Love the honesty and knowledge here. Not to be found on many other sites.
 
And don't think it is just K98k that are humped. At this point half the Finns being traded are suspect (same dealer had half a dozen with renumbered bolts), saw a Belgian FN-49 with replacement stock numbered to match a couple weeks ago, Enfields collectors encourage refinishing to original and renumbering to match, American collectors have no issue with making a rifle correct and selling it as such, French MAS number doesn't match swap it with unumbered replacement part and call a bolt matching only rifle matching. Just saw someone yesterday call a bolt matching only rifle matching (other parts not numbered) matching. It's a minefield and at one point you are likely to get burned. What separates a good collector from bad is not passing on the beating to someone else but documenting that it was a humped rifle.

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The line between legitimate reworks and humped is pretty blurred and *most* dealers are not collectors.

I bought a batch of Argentine 1891's several years ago and posted several on gunboards in a research project a member there and I were working on. Several members screamed HUMPED. Personally I think it is an idiotic colloquialism that has evolved into such a non-specific meaning, it has no meaning. Since the rifles had been imported, sat in a warehouse, and then sold to me, who did the humping? After extensive research, working with Webster, and several contacts in Argentina, we were able confirm and show that Argentina had an extensive rework program to rebuild the rifles, including restamping and renumbering bolts, receivers, barrels, basically any and all parts.

The trick then is identifying what rifles were reworked in Argentina versus what rifles may have been reworked in the US.

When it comes to rifles that were manufactured in say Germany, sold to one country, surplused to another, surplused to another, fought in several regional conflicts changing hands several times, before finally being surplused to the US, it becomes very difficult to say what is "humped". If every dealer pulled every rifle someone claimed was humped, 90% of rifles on the market would never sell.

But you know all of this... you know how long it took you to gain all of that knowledge. Could you have made $75/hr while learning all of those small details to keep your business running?

So to echo what everyone has said, there is NO site, to my knowledge, besides this one, that you will find extreme honesty about what is being sold. YET, even here, there have been several instances of rifles that are clearly not correct being sold.... as correct. It happens everywhere. It requires you the buyer to be informed.
 
What Capt. said. Watch the trader here. The guys here are most helpful and do take the time to look out for new guys. All you need to do is contact someone and establish relationships within the hobby. If one simply exercises some due diligence, researches, and relies upon a site such as this one, which is open, transparent, and uncensored, you won't get burned.
 
and take your time when looking to buy. I past up some good rifles as well as some bad ones until I learned what to look for. I am no expert but have come a long way from being a member here and having all three books sold by a couple of members here.
 
Yes there are legitimate reworks. The ones I mentioned were not legitimate reworks or are not truly matching rifles being sold as such. In the case of the French MAS yes the French put unumbered parts on, but bolt and receiver matching only is not a matching rifle IMO.

As for dealers yes some legitimately miss stuff, some buy bad stuff, and some hump stuff. The problem I have is when a dealer is selling a dov46 for the second time around, was made aware of it the first time by one of the most knowledgeable of collectors, reminded the second time, yet the listing remained.

If my business was selling firearms I would think I would have more time to learn all the small details or I would make more time for it. For what I didn't know or was unsure I would ask knowledgeable collectors like I do now. I want K98k answer I message collectors here. I want Mauser contract rifle answers I ask my friends in Germany who have worked on research with Jon Speed. FN-49 I ask Wayne Johnson. Most collectors are more than helpful.

Lastly to answer the question of who did the humping of rifles that were imported and sat in a warehouse then sold directly to collectors? That would be the importer. One of the members here mentioned he worked for Inter Ordnance renumbering bolts on Finnish rifles.


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With regard to American collectors, I remember reading on a website (I forgot which one, maybe this one) about the difference between "correct" and "original". There seems to be a debate somewhat as to what language should be used. In my opinion calling a restored rifle "correct" is fine if both parties have the same understanding--that is, the rifle has been restored to correct configuration; it does not have the parts as originally manufactured. So, if a seller calls something "correct" it should be made clear it is not original. Any change to a rifle known by the seller should be disclosed. It is wrong to be technically accurate if the intent is to mislead, such as, "the rifle's serial number 1234 is on the receiver, bolt, barrel..." But no mention is made that the numbers were recently added. Also, It is wrong for sellers to say things like, "It looks like the parts are original..."--and they may look very original--when the seller knows they are not original. (This whole concept can be explained by the basic contract principal of "meeting of the minds" or "mutual assent" that is, both parties share the same understanding of what the deal is.) I think some sellers use this kind of language in their descriptions so that when they get busted they can argue, "I did't say it was factory original" or, "I never claimed it was not re-numbered [refinished, whatever]". When selling, the more disclosed the better; full disclosure prevents buyers from being disappointed.

I think Jackson Armory in Dallas and Checkpoint Charlie are generally considered good, honest dealers.
 
And don't think it is just K98k that are humped. At this point half the Finns being traded are suspect (same dealer had half a dozen with renumbered bolts), saw a Belgian FN-49 with replacement stock numbered to match a couple weeks ago, Enfields collectors encourage refinishing to original and renumbering to match, American collectors have no issue with making a rifle correct and selling it as such, French MAS number doesn't match swap it with unumbered replacement part and call a bolt matching only rifle matching. Just saw someone yesterday call a bolt matching only rifle matching (other parts not numbered) matching. It's a minefield and at one point you are likely to get burned. What separates a good collector from bad is not passing on the beating to someone else but documenting that it was a humped rifle.

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Where are Enfield collectors encouraging people to renumber parts? Could you give me any examples?
 
Where are Enfield collectors encouraging people to renumber parts? Could you give me any examples?
There are some threads on gunboards where it was said it was done, but it was the same as what would have been done at FTR and it was their rifle. On Milsurps Brian Dick was very proud of his restorations with original Suncrorite. This was a thread last week. They aren't marked as being restored so what happens when the person having it restored sells it? Not one person said that isn't right.

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To the extent there is much monkey business going on with Enfields, it's mainly involving the sniper rifles. I have seen some examples of scope and mount renumbering. But for most standard rifles, the money and demand isn't really there to justify the effort to renumber or outright fake.
 
To the extent there is much monkey business going on with Enfields, it's mainly involving the sniper rifles. I have seen some examples of scope and mount renumbering. But for most standard rifles, the money and demand isn't really there to justify the effort to renumber or outright fake.

For a scammer it is worth it to renumber a nosecap or add a stamp if it means $100 more. Dishonest people will spend more time and effort not working than if they actually went to work.

Edit: Just a general statement about the not being worth it part in general. Not just Enfields. Same was said about adding a SA stamp but it was done.


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I've found Enfield guys to be straight up and good guys. I'm one.
Not saying they are bad just that refinishing does not seem frowned upon and I've even seen where renumbering a nosecap on one's rifle for their personal use didn't seem to be a big deal. Here is the recent thread in regards to a No5 Bayonet. I thought the guy Peter was joking about having it refinished. Doesn't look like he was and I wasn't going to argue about it.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=68149



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I agree that there are certainly dishonest people out there, and there are certainly people with different views of what an honest rifle or pistol actually is. Like the 1902 or 1904 Kar that was posted recently. Absolutely a terrible job, mind boggling in its dis-honesty.

But we have to be careful at the same time. I see thread after thread that guns are labeled humped, bad, etc.

Because the bolt serial was remarked does not make the seller a scammer. Because the bolt was remarked does not make it humped or a forgery, or a scam, or anything else, and even Karem and Steves have stated on this board that it is difficult, at times, even for them to recognize a good original piece from something that was modified/reworked during WWII, after WWII, or during any of the dozen+ wars in between.

In my example, I seriously doubt the importer took the time to remark anything. What would their motive be? Money? I doubt it, with the cost of labor being what it is. If they were going to remark parts, wouldn't they remark parts to make the gun more valuable? Now in your example, you have a person claiming to be an employee that says they were restamping bolts. I take that as much fact as someone saying anything... I take it with a might big grain of salt. Can we confirm employment? Like anything on this board, what are the primary sources? I do not take anyone's word as fact, unless they have something to substantiate it.

Original font stamps similar to factory tooling are near impossible to find, and extremely expensive to make. Originals are beyond rare.

It comes down to studying as diverse a group of rifles as you can. Diverse knowledge helps too. I am constantly amazed at people who call a rifle humped, because it was mis-stamped. They clearly have never stamped anything. But know the subtle differences can make all the difference.
 
Unfortunately, like everything else you just have to be careful. I've bought a lot of firearms over the years and have only been burned once (the badly humped G24t), but took no financial loss.

Outside of this venue, you always take a chance. Dealers are great at leaving out certain pics on listings and using careful language "all the SN I can see match"-- Use this site as a reference, ask a friend (or two) on the forum to double check the pics, and as a final safety net, always make sure the dealer has a return policy. I'm automatically wary of any dealer that doesn't offer one. If something doesn't seem right when the item arrives, post some detailed pics here and let the folks vet it while you are in your return window. Just be careful you don't void your return by disassembling, firing, etc.

Common sense, but it has served me well. I think the better educated we are, the less we aid and abet the humpers of the world. Sadly, lots of folks don't take the time and they continue to incent these crooks to continue humping by throwing them $$.

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