Third Party Press

BS and KS Gew 98M

chrisftk

Moderator
Staff member
Hi all,

I bit the bullet on this one, as it was reasonably local. I way overpaid, but these don't exactly grow on trees and after seeing it in person, it was an easy decision.

I know the jury is still out on the exact origins of these markings, but this rifle is an Amberg 1904, 1920 marked and stylized BS and KS marked on the stock and barrel collar. It is mostly matching as reworked (bolt release, cleaning rod and trigger don't match-- oddly trigger is #43, the first and last digits of the full SN)

The rifle has the typical Weimar era rebuild features (blued receiver/bolt, Spandau marked stock disc added, S/42 G / k155 rear sight added). Interestingly, a second #(7505) was added to the receiver ring on the left side, under the original SN. Was this maybe a weapon # for whatever BS/KS organization?

The rear band was not replaced, but the 4 digit SN added.

The barrel is a replacement marked with a Prussian eagle and barrel code BS T 65 (partial misstrike)

Bolt is force-matched imperial, trigger guard is overstamped/force-matched. Front sight is marked with the SN and an "Z" (or maybe a N?)

The stock is the original 1904 stock with sharp Bavarian cartouches and the BS/KS markings. The 1920 mark is on the left side. Additionally, there are Rp and Br markings-- no clue what these denote. Any thoughts?

The buttplate has what appears to be a #4 (or #1) depot mark, but I am not sure, as it is not well struck.

In any case, I hope this example is interesting to everyone and provides new information to maybe help our understanding of these. If I can add any further pics, let me know.

Pics to follow:

IMG_20221105_104912834.jpgIMG_20221105_104938939.jpgIMG_20221105_110328888.jpgIMG_20221105_110417437_HDR.jpgIMG_20221105_110444164_HDR.jpgIMG_20221105_110459275_HDR.jpgIMG_20221105_110514798_HDR.jpgIMG_20221105_110533192_HDR.jpgIMG_20221105_110601440_HDR.jpgIMG_20221105_110608048_HDR.jpgIMG_20221105_110700952_HDR.jpgIMG_20221105_110718921_HDR.jpgIMG_20221105_110736531_HDR.jpgIMG_20221105_110821533_HDR.jpg
 
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Nice rifle, I think these interwar pieces are very interesting and currently undervalued. Thanks for posting.
 
SN on parts:

Receiver: 4103a
Barrel: 4103
Stock: 4103 Interior and exterior
Handguard: 4103
Triggerguard: 4103 (overstamped)
Floorplate: 03
Bolt body 4103a (assumed force-matched)
Bolt shroud: 03 (force matched)
Cocking piece: 03 (Force matched)
Safety: 03 (force matched)
Firing pin: 03 (force matched)
Front band: 4103
Rear band: 4103
Front sight: 03
Bayonet lug: 03
Buttplate: 4103a
Rear sight base: 4103
Rear sight leaf: 4103 (sn split similar to a "BS" receiver rifle in vol1)
Rear sight slider 4103
Bolt stop: 89
Trigger: 43





Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk
 
You would have to be Houdini to try and interpret such a mix of markings, - and pretty arrogant and conceited to think anyone would take you serious!

There are a few rifles with "similar" markings, a similar mix of BS/KS and the Bp and Rp, usually property marked like yours, some are only stocks, some have a similarly diverse mix but slight differences (like Gz in addition or in replacing one of the others...) To my thinking, these are organizational, not depot related, possibly organizational and location identifiers. Probably police related in some way, - Germany in this time frame had a vast array police, security and paramilitary types, though the latter would not carry a property mark, - having a property mark means it was governmental, typically police or military. So we can discard some of the more exotic organizations, though it is possible the rifle passed to one later, one remember when the property mark was added, Germany was vastly over treaty limits, many, probably most, that were "1920" marked were destroyed by 1924. I am sure a great many were "lost" as well... which is quite right, if a "diktat" can masquerade as a "treaty", rifles can be misplaced or lost.

The barrel is a war time replacement, Erfurt style FP, the barrel raw forging being BSI = Bergische Stahl-Industrie-Gesellschaft, Remscheid. In almost all cases, nearly 100, BSI marked barrels almost always are either Erfurt rifles (98a in particular) or carry an Erfurt style eagle (if Spandau and Danzig had collection centers, possibly at their artillery depots, then Erfurt surely possessed one, - so too if such a small facility at Küstrin operated one, Erfurt probably supervised something similar. Their oversight is seen at Dresden and Suhl through the use of Erfurt's FP's) .

The only real outlier is the 7505, this is similar to some Turk jobs I have seen, but in this case it is clearly not the case (Turk), the simply fact is too few rifles like this exist or have been seen. When such rifles do show up they are as much as anything an assembly of parts that only confuse the task of finding answers.

Most collectors of German military rifles do not quite appreciate the rarity of such rifles, in any real sense of the word (rare) only the republican era offers this quality. What passes for rare in K98k circles is dirt common for most of the Republican era rarities... and history you say? shite, there is ten times the history and interesting stories behind Republican era rifles than nazi crap. Most "nazi" rifles are in good shape because they weren't used near the front, at least for any appreciable length of time. These rifles like yours served in WWI, where if they are pre-1917 were probably used in some actual war capacity, and if they stayed in German hands probably served in many roles, - some in action, fighting Poles, communist insurgents, or even train robbers or Rhine river pirates! (who actual raided AEF supplies for a time, though I have seen no reports of how they were armed or fate..).

Anyway, neat rifle that is most amazing for the fact it survived in such original condition (German original, the rifle shows multiple signs or ordnance work.. over a prolonged period)
 
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You would have to be Houdini to try and interpret such a mix of markings, - and pretty arrogant and conceited to think anyone would take you serious!

There are a few rifles with "similar" markings, a similar mix of BS/KS and the Bp and Rp, usually property marked like yours, some are only stocks, some have a similarly diverse mix but slight differences (like Gz in addition or in replacing one of the others...) To my thinking, these are organizational, not depot related, possibly organizational and location identifiers. Probably police related in some way, - Germany in this time frame had a vast array police, security and paramilitary types, though the latter would not carry a property mark, - having a property mark means it was governmental, typically police or military. So we can discard some of the more exotic organizations, though it is possible the rifle passed to one later, one remember when the property mark was added, Germany was vastly over treaty limits, many, probably most, that were "1920" marked were destroyed by 1924. I am sure a great many were "lost" as well... which is quite right, if a "diktat" can masquerade as a "treaty", rifles can be misplaced or lost.

The barrel is a war time replacement, Erfurt style FP, the barrel raw forging being BSI = Bergische Stahl-Industrie-Gesellschaft, Remscheid. In almost all cases, nearly 100, BSI marked barrels almost always are either Erfurt rifles (98a in particular) or carry an Erfurt style eagle (if Spandau and Danzig had collection centers, possibly at their artillery depots, then Erfurt surely possessed one, - so too if such a small facility at Küstrin operated one, Erfurt probably supervised something similar. Their oversight is seen at Dresden and Suhl through the use of Erfurt's FP's) .

The only real outlier is the 7505, this is similar to some Turk jobs I have seen, but in this case it is clearly not the case (Turk), the simply fact is too few rifles like this exist or have been seen. When such rifles do show up they are as much as anything an assembly of parts that only confuse the task of finding answers.

Most collectors of German military rifles do not quite appreciate the rarity of such rifles, in any real sense of the word (rare) only the republican era offers this quality. What passes for rare in K98k circles is dirt common for most of the Republican era rarities... and history you say? shite, there is ten times the history and interesting stories behind Republican era rifles than nazi crap. Most "nazi" rifles are in good shape because they weren't used near the front, at least for any appreciable length of time. These rifles like yours served in WWI, where if they are pre-1917 were probably used in some actual war capacity, and if they stayed in German hands probably served in many roles, - some in action, fighting Poles, communist insurgents, or even train robbers or Rhine river pirates! (who actual raided AEF supplies for a time, though I have seen no reports of how they were armed or fate..).

Anyway, neat rifle that is most amazing for the fact it survived in such original condition (German original, the rifle shows multiple signs or ordnance work.. over a prolonged period)
Thank you Paul, as always. I see the interwar period as an underappreciated era and honest examples are depressingly scare these days. Would love a Simson 98b to round things out.

I'd love to ascertain the meaning of the BS or KS, but I guess they'll remain a mystery until some period documentation emerges (if ever), but I think the police thought makes total sense.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk
 
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Most "nazi" rifles are in good shape because they weren't used near the front, at least for any appreciable length of time.

Or were taken from the factory.
Poor Nazi crap with no history!

BTW: I very much doubt the BS/KS marked rifles are police related. From my observations, the German police only had K98 (A). With the exception of the Bavarian police, that introduced the K98b.
 
Or were taken from the factory.
Poor Nazi crap with no history!

BTW: I very much doubt the BS/KS marked rifles are police related. From my observations, the German police only had K98 (A). With the exception of the Bavarian police, that introduced the K98b.
Wolfgang, any thoughts as to what the BS/KS markings were? Paramilitary/Freikorps type organization?

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Wolfgang, any thoughts as to what the BS/KS markings were? Paramilitary/Freikorps type organization?

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

Thoughts? Yes, many.
But nothing I want to publish. Only guesses. Nothing I can confirm in any way.
Only a few period photos.
 

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