Otto Bock WWI Sniper Scope
- Thread starter Absolut
- Start date
Mikegermany
Member
I think you're going wrong with the german term "company". At this time an firm with 3 workers get called "company" or "Fabrik".
Otto Bock was an wellknown gunsmith of its time, as usual at this time he bought guns in Suhl and Zella Mehlis made by his opinion and signed them with his name.
If you are a little familar with the production of scopes around 1900 you know that you need some special machines-very high priced at this time.
At this time there where enough firms that made scopes, so why Bock should get in manufacturing scopes? His speciality was mounting of scopes- even the mounts where
manufactured by specialized firms around Suhl and Zell Mehlis.
Mikegermany
Member
Do you have even an small official info about this?
Jackenkroll was never in gun's, Bock had not many machines and was not an factory- so that sounds very improbable.
The history of german industry around WW1 is well documented and looks completely different than scetched here.
Mikegermany
Member
There is an other interesting point on theory of "Bock scopes".
If he had the options and background in machinery to build scopes- why he didnt sell them on the very interesting civilian market?
If you go into the journal " Der Waffenschmied" and "Der Waffenhändler", an every 14 days released journal around every aspect in guns, scopes, ammunition and every thing around from
1881 until 1945 you find in the time around WW1 every known maker with advertisments, but not one from "Bock scopes".
Also in "Schuss und Waffe" you find nothing about "Bock scopes".
Even after WW1 in the hard times around 1920 there is nothing about "Bock scopes". This makes absolutely no sense to me- if he had the options and machinery to build scopes and
earn money in this hard times so why he didn't? Remember, the company is documented untill 1926.
To give the story an face- Otto Bock with his hunting friend "Heiko":
ot, but just an few german scopes....
If he had the options and background in machinery to build scopes- why he didnt sell them on the very interesting civilian market?
If you go into the journal " Der Waffenschmied" and "Der Waffenhändler", an every 14 days released journal around every aspect in guns, scopes, ammunition and every thing around from
1881 until 1945 you find in the time around WW1 every known maker with advertisments, but not one from "Bock scopes".
Also in "Schuss und Waffe" you find nothing about "Bock scopes".
Even after WW1 in the hard times around 1920 there is nothing about "Bock scopes". This makes absolutely no sense to me- if he had the options and machinery to build scopes and
earn money in this hard times so why he didn't? Remember, the company is documented untill 1926.
To give the story an face- Otto Bock with his hunting friend "Heiko":
ot, but just an few german scopes....
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Absolut
Senior Member
Mike, how would you explain that at a certain serial scopes which were previously Otto Bock marked all of a sudden A. Jackenroll marked? Maybe A. Jackenroll produced exclusive for Bock and then made up his own selling business? Or wouldn‘t it be possible that Bock decided to focus on hunting rifles and sell off his optics production to A. Jackenroll who with this then started his optics production?
I could post more scopes than in your pics, but I don‘t think this is helpful for the discussion on Otto Bock.
I could post more scopes than in your pics, but I don‘t think this is helpful for the discussion on Otto Bock.
The longer I think about this idea, the more I like it.
Like the Mauser marked bayonets made by Unionwerk Mea G.m.b.H
Mikegermany
Member
once more.....
Otto Bock was founded in 1883, he was master in gunsmithing, later purveyor to the court. His shop was called "Gewehrfabrik", like every second shop at this time. It was necessary around the 1910 to have 3 workers to call an shop "Fabrik". In 1913 he had working 4 peoples in his shop. The main art to work was to buy guns in Suhl and Zella Mehlis, also he bought "in the white" guns and built them up like the customer wanted. Absolutely usual art to work at this decade.
As you know the mounting of sniper scopes was outsourced form Amberg and Spandau for several reasons and given to private Firms like Bock or Miller&Greis and others.
Jackenkroll was founded 1894 and was in the optical buiseness with lenses for objektivs, and also theire compass line was well known before WW1.
As usual with begin of WW1 the line was opened for military used parts and optics.
Jackenkroll had in their finacial balance for 1912 122 fabrikworkers, 13 commercial employes and an construction bureau.
So it makes no sense that Bock had an production line for scopes, even that he sell this production line to Jackenkroll.
There is not one little notice in several archives about an relationsship or what ever between Bock and Jackenkroll.
The only thing that makes sense is always the same. Bock bought scopes, signed them and sold them. An thing that happens every day in our times, and also happened at this time.
Please excuse that i had the cheek to show some scopes, it will never again happen.
For me the discussion is closed, it is hard to discuss on this different level.
Facts are the only truth, not wishful thinking.
Otto Bock was founded in 1883, he was master in gunsmithing, later purveyor to the court. His shop was called "Gewehrfabrik", like every second shop at this time. It was necessary around the 1910 to have 3 workers to call an shop "Fabrik". In 1913 he had working 4 peoples in his shop. The main art to work was to buy guns in Suhl and Zella Mehlis, also he bought "in the white" guns and built them up like the customer wanted. Absolutely usual art to work at this decade.
As you know the mounting of sniper scopes was outsourced form Amberg and Spandau for several reasons and given to private Firms like Bock or Miller&Greis and others.
Jackenkroll was founded 1894 and was in the optical buiseness with lenses for objektivs, and also theire compass line was well known before WW1.
As usual with begin of WW1 the line was opened for military used parts and optics.
Jackenkroll had in their finacial balance for 1912 122 fabrikworkers, 13 commercial employes and an construction bureau.
So it makes no sense that Bock had an production line for scopes, even that he sell this production line to Jackenkroll.
There is not one little notice in several archives about an relationsship or what ever between Bock and Jackenkroll.
The only thing that makes sense is always the same. Bock bought scopes, signed them and sold them. An thing that happens every day in our times, and also happened at this time.
Please excuse that i had the cheek to show some scopes, it will never again happen.
For me the discussion is closed, it is hard to discuss on this different level.
Facts are the only truth, not wishful thinking.
Absolut
Senior Member
Mike, at this point of our discussion noone in here said you are wrong with saying that Bock did not manufacture scopes. However, a connection with Ajack was made since scopes which are known with lower serial are marked Otto Bock and with higher serials (but technically and dimensional identical) are marked A. Jackenroll. Wouldn't this allow to assume that Jackenroll originally manufactured scopes for Bock and therefore answer the discussion we have had in here?
Since according to your information Jackenroll had more than 100 employees in 1912, do you know what exactly they were producing at that point of time? Do any documents show in particular what they produced and what is the earliest Jackenroll scope you have seen?
My comment regarding your pictures was referring to the fact that showing "how many you have" does not help to win an argument. I did appreciate seeing them being a collector myself, but would prefer to see those in an own thread and not in the discussion on an Otto Bock scope.
Since according to your information Jackenroll had more than 100 employees in 1912, do you know what exactly they were producing at that point of time? Do any documents show in particular what they produced and what is the earliest Jackenroll scope you have seen?
My comment regarding your pictures was referring to the fact that showing "how many you have" does not help to win an argument. I did appreciate seeing them being a collector myself, but would prefer to see those in an own thread and not in the discussion on an Otto Bock scope.
Absolut
Senior Member
Since it fits this context: found today on ebay.com an ad for a scope which bears the following markings on the focal adjustment.... One side "Busch "VISAR" 5x" over "D.R.G.M.", other side "1932" over "Otto Bock, K.u.K. Hofl." over "Berlin". Scope elevation markings and rings (inline claw mounts) are commercial and comes with an AKAH marked leather pouch.
Not sure if 1932 is the scope serial (no other serial visible in pictures), or if it refers to the date it was mounted, but from comparing it with other identical models I would guess it is the scope serial.
Edit: found another extremely closeby serial 1922 which does not have the Otto Bock markings and instead is marked to Emil Busch A.G. Rathenow at Cowan's Auctions (see https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/german-emil-busch-rathenow-visar-5-rifle-scope-141605). So would then think the one on eBay surely is a scope which was made for Otto Bock.
Not sure if 1932 is the scope serial (no other serial visible in pictures), or if it refers to the date it was mounted, but from comparing it with other identical models I would guess it is the scope serial.
Edit: found another extremely closeby serial 1922 which does not have the Otto Bock markings and instead is marked to Emil Busch A.G. Rathenow at Cowan's Auctions (see https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/german-emil-busch-rathenow-visar-5-rifle-scope-141605). So would then think the one on eBay surely is a scope which was made for Otto Bock.
Well, there is no doubt that Otto Bock ordered scopes from different companies and had them engraved with his logo.
The Busch scope was not especially made for the Bock company. It's a regular Busch scope with an additional engraving.
But here we are talking about the military contract scopes from Otto Bock!
Do you know the history of the Gottscho bayonets?
'Seitengewehr Mod. Gottscho' is the original name from the First World War. It is rarely designated in correspondence as S14G2.
The names S14II and S15 are modern creations with no historical background.
The Gottscho bayonet was purchased despite the negative expert reports and obvious design defects in contrary to the warnings. It was expensive as well. But the German armies did not have enough bayonets for their soldiers!
In January 1915 the Bavarian Army ordered bayonets from Gottscho. Some time later the Württemberg Army ordered them too.
But who/what was the Gottscho company?
Mr. Gottscho was a jewish lawyer for patent law in Berlin. He wrote some books about patent law and owned shares of a movie studio.
The jewish patent lawyer Dr. Lucian Gottscho did not have any own production facilities and had the parts manufactured and assembled by various suppliers ...... and he sold bayonets to the Bavarian/Wuerttemberg army!
The Busch scope was not especially made for the Bock company. It's a regular Busch scope with an additional engraving.
But here we are talking about the military contract scopes from Otto Bock!
Do you know the history of the Gottscho bayonets?
'Seitengewehr Mod. Gottscho' is the original name from the First World War. It is rarely designated in correspondence as S14G2.
The names S14II and S15 are modern creations with no historical background.
The Gottscho bayonet was purchased despite the negative expert reports and obvious design defects in contrary to the warnings. It was expensive as well. But the German armies did not have enough bayonets for their soldiers!
In January 1915 the Bavarian Army ordered bayonets from Gottscho. Some time later the Württemberg Army ordered them too.
But who/what was the Gottscho company?
Mr. Gottscho was a jewish lawyer for patent law in Berlin. He wrote some books about patent law and owned shares of a movie studio.
The jewish patent lawyer Dr. Lucian Gottscho did not have any own production facilities and had the parts manufactured and assembled by various suppliers ...... and he sold bayonets to the Bavarian/Wuerttemberg army!
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Mikegermany
Member
Thats the same point if we are speaking about "Bock scopes".
