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rco44 Cleaning Kit

bill grist

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rco44 ordnance Tan Cleaning Kit... The spoon/floorplate removal/chamber cleaning tool is bnz marked and proofed WaA815...BILL
 

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None finer and more complete that I've ever seen, with a dachsund background as bonus ;). Pic stickied. Thanks Bill.
 
Sorry, but I have some concerns about:
1) dog chain style cleaning chain (probably post war East German)
2) oiler (post war plastic!?) ("rco44" and "rco45" usually come with pressed steel oilers)
3) markings on Hülsenkopfwischer (never ever seen something like that!) and shape.
Where did you get it from? Looks like a fake! Sorry!
Wolfgang
 
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Wolfgang, have you ever seen an e/815 component for a cleaning kit? This would most likely be attributable to Steyr Graz, and they made a lot of stamped parts, but I have never seen this waffenamt on such a tool before either? Have you ever seen any e/815 part on an RG34 - anything?

The waffenamt compares well with their early products (it is a good copy of how an original appears, right eagle, letter-number fonts), but I have not seen it on other than MG accessories, mostly MP40 mags & loaders, MG34 bipods etc... my main interest is that BerndN once stated he saw a cleaning kit case marked e/815, but when we discussed this before it was somewhat discounted.

I am very interested to hear your opinion on this, Steyr Graz involvement in anything cleaning kit related, as I know it is one of your primary fields.

Sorry, but I have some concerns about:
1) dog chain style cleaning chain (probably post war East German)
2) oiler (post war plastic!?)
3) markings on Hülsenkopfwischer (never ever seen something like that!) and shape.
Wolfgang
 
Have never ever seen any RG34 related parts with real bnz or e/815 stamp.
Wolfgang
PS:
the following makers for RG34 are known:
G.Appel with codes 64, cnx and probably CNX for the 1945 completed Mundlos kits
Braunscheigische Blechwarenfabrik with codes: kh, ky, arr, rco
HAWIG with code: cmr
Mundlos with code: ab and CNX (see G.Appel)
Schlesinger with code. ftd
unknown with code: rbl
some chains and bakelite oilers were made by subcontractors. But nothing close to Steyr.
 
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Thanks, I thought that was probably your conclusion, - just goes to show nothing is safe from stamps, not even components for the RG34! Shouldn't surprise me though as I have seen them stamp stripper clips and recently a single rune P08 tool. These days the stamps are getting quite good, and can fool anyone...

Keep an eye for e/815 & e/189 components over there, looking for any component or any item.

Have never ever seen any RG34 related parts with real bnz or e/815 stamp.
Wolfgang
PS:
the following makers for RG34 are known:
G.Appel with codes 64, cnx and probably CNX for the 1945 completed Mundlos kits
Braunscheigische Blechwarenfabrik with codes: kh, ky, arr, rco
HAWIG with code: cmr
Mundlos with code: ab and CNX (see G.Appel)
Schlesinger with code. ftd
unknown with code: rbl
some chains and bakelite oilers were made by subcontractors. But nothing close to Steyr.
 
Paul, the mags, stamped floorplates and followers of 98E and kur (Steyr) marked MP.40 mags are WaA815 inspected, as are the kur stamped loading tools for the MP.40. Any Steyr maker of these parts would be naturally prone to stamping Rg.34 tools IMHO.

That 815 inspection shows up on alot of stamped metal things associated with Steyr:
http://claus.espeholt.dk/mediearkiv/waae.pdf
 
Guys,

I once owned a Hülsenkopfwischer marked with the bnz shield. I gave it to a member here a looooooooooooong time ago- Sarge. I bet he still has it. I can't remember if it had a waffenamt, but i know it was bnz marked, and it was real. I'll see if I can't get him to post it.
 
I could take all day detailing errors and correcting how that list was compiled (just starting with waffenamt "1" and how it is outlined tells you all you need to know... it was never associated any firm outside of Chemnitz, and his report is full of such poor associations connecting components to assemblers), but nothing on that list is new (re- the post I made on the MG forum details Graz known production- http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?3099-Steyr-MG42-production&p=24963#post24963) except the cleaning kits. Which Wolfgang and I have discussed before, on this forum sometime ago:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?1524-Tools-cleaning-kits-screwdrivers-ect.&p=10389#post10389

I asked him about Steyr Graz involvement, and the unsubstantiated reports of cans and parts, because Wolfgang knows more about the RG-34 than anyone I know, and was curious if his opinion had changed. I agree with him, the tool is very likely not authentic.


Paul, the mags, stamped floorplates and followers of 98E and kur (Steyr) marked MP.40 mags are WaA815 inspected, as are the kur stamped loading tools for the MP.40. Any Steyr maker of these parts would be naturally prone to stamping Rg.34 tools IMHO.

That 815 inspection shows up on alot of stamped metal things associated with Steyr:
http://claus.espeholt.dk/mediearkiv/waae.pdf
 
A bnz/1 shield, like on a barrel? What components or accessories have you ever encountered with the bnz/1 shield? Just asking because off hand that sounds a lot less plausible than the waffenamt on the tool.

I'd like to see it too.

Guys,

I once owned a Hülsenkopfwischer marked with the bnz shield. I gave it to a member here a looooooooooooong time ago- Sarge. I bet he still has it. I can't remember if it had a waffenamt, but i know it was bnz marked, and it was real. I'll see if I can't get him to post it.
 
A bnz/1 shield, like on a barrel? What components or accessories have you ever encountered with the bnz/1 shield? Just asking because off hand that sounds a lot less plausible than the waffenamt on the tool.

I'd like to see it too.

Yes, bnz/1 shield marked like on barrels. I'm positive the one I had was original- I've asked Sarge to post it. Wish I had kept it, but at the time I wasn't collecting Steyr or cleaning kits and he collected both...that has changed!
 
Perhaps others have seen such waffenamt or logo marked components on their RG34? If anyone else has a RG34, can or component, that has a waffenamt, code or company logo consider posting images of them, - or describe them. Appel is the only one (Hawig too), off hand, that I have seen use a logo, and the bnz/1 shield, so far as I am aware only came into use in mid-1943 ("L" block earliest production bnz known, the SR & no finals are known of course but they were not made until well into 1943). Before that they used the bullseye logo.

Yes, bnz/1 shield marked like on barrels. I'm positive the one I had was original- I've asked Sarge to post it. Wish I had kept it, but at the time I wasn't collecting Steyr or cleaning kits and he collected both...that has changed!
 
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I could take all day detailing errors and correcting how that list was compiled (just starting with waffenamt "1" and how it is outlined tells you all you need to know... it was never associated any firm outside of Chemnitz, and his report is full of such poor associations connecting components to assemblers), but nothing on that list is new (re- the post I made on the MG forum details Graz known production- http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?3099-Steyr-MG42-production&p=24963#post24963) except the cleaning kits. Which Wolfgang and I have discussed before, on this forum sometime ago:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?1524-Tools-cleaning-kits-screwdrivers-ect.&p=10389#post10389

I asked him about Steyr Graz involvement, and the unsubstantiated reports of cans and parts, because Wolfgang knows more about the RG-34 than anyone I know, and was curious if his opinion had changed. I agree with him, the tool is very likely not authentic.

The information provided that 98E and kur Steyr MP.40 loaders, mag bodies, followers, and floorplates, all stamped parts, bear WaA815 is based upon those things in my possession. I cannot vouch for the rest.
 
Not that its much help, but I found two old ebay auctions out of Europe, one reporting a can marked KY 1939 with both WaA442 and WaA815 and another with a can only marked WaA815. No pics though.

Another 815 spoon snatched from GunBoards. The spoon is different from Bill's, but the stamp is the same. I'm not sure I like it.
 

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I won't say no, But I'm not impressed with the spoon shown by RyanE. It seems unlikely that the eagle style on the WaA would have changed like that, but??? It is also an earlier version of the spoon.

The spoon I got from Farb - YES, I still have it - is near identical to the one Bill shows. The difference is that mine is stamped with the spoon laying in the oposite direction. The right wing on mine is not so distinct, But the shield/bnz is much more clear and complete. The number below the bnz is not clear, only the top got stamped, But it is Not a 1, it is either a 2 or a 3 - can't see the bottom 2/3 of it.
No photos available as my camera died some time ago and I haven't gotten around to repairing or replacing it.
I agree that I also think this is an original item. Spoon style says late war and it may be that Steyr started making them because someone else got bombed out or some such?
Sarge
 
It is not only the Hülsenkopfwischer I do not like.
Plastic oilers and dog chain style cleaning chains only show up in post war reissued RGs. The dog chains usually in RGs reissued with the NVA (East German Army), together with the aluminum oiler. If the oiler is war time, it should be marked. (see photos)
The manufacturers of the RG already had subcontractors for chains, oilers and Hülsenkopfwischer in 1941. No need for Steyr to jump in.
I do not say it is a fake, since I could not proof this. But with more than 200 RGs in my own collection and another hundrets I had in my hands, I dare to say that I have serious concerns.
Wolfgang
 

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Thanks Ryan, excellent report, and while agree with you, I am not sure I like it either (actually I am pretty sure I do not like it..), it is another one to consider.

My only concern here is that these "reports" go back to the KCN days, before there was much profit in tinkering with RG34 components, and high quality stamps were not readily available. And that Bernd in Germany reported one in his MRJ article. He was unsure at the time, but he isn't a boob either, and has a good eye for original.

Not that its much help, but I found two old ebay auctions out of Europe, one reporting a can marked KY 1939 with both WaA442 and WaA815 and another with a can only marked WaA815. No pics though.

Another 815 spoon snatched from GunBoards. The spoon is different from Bill's, but the stamp is the same. I'm not sure I like it.
 
Thanks for chiming in with some details, that it is bnz/2 or bnz/3 is better than bnz/1 as I think the shields represent facilities or branches, maybe workshops, - you see different ones like on Brno barrels (dot/13, dot/11 etc..)

I still can't recall ever seeing a Steyr shield on a component besides barrels, though they may exist. If anyone can recall seeing a bnz shield on any part other than a barrel post a picture or make note of it?

I do want to say though that I have seen manufacturer shields on components before, dfb (Simson Suhl old factory) used them quite often, MG bolts, and a few components, but just not Steyr, so far as I can recall.

I won't say no, But I'm not impressed with the spoon shown by RyanE. It seems unlikely that the eagle style on the WaA would have changed like that, but??? It is also an earlier version of the spoon.

The spoon I got from Farb - YES, I still have it - is near identical to the one Bill shows. The difference is that mine is stamped with the spoon laying in the oposite direction. The right wing on mine is not so distinct, But the shield/bnz is much more clear and complete. The number below the bnz is not clear, only the top got stamped, But it is Not a 1, it is either a 2 or a 3 - can't see the bottom 2/3 of it.
No photos available as my camera died some time ago and I haven't gotten around to repairing or replacing it.
I agree that I also think this is an original item. Spoon style says late war and it may be that Steyr started making them because someone else got bombed out or some such?
Sarge
 
Wish I had know this earlier- back when I had a few "dog chain" kits and thought they were ok! Had a few of the ones Mike posted on the arr thread too, but never really though much about the differences. When I sold them I guess I stuck someone with a stinker dog chain, instead of real deal.

Hopefully others will come up with examples that support the Steyr Graz connection, as I really do want them to be legit. Good to know about the oilers and how they are marked, I have never taken one apart before.

It is not only the Hülsenkopfwischer I do not like.
Plastic oilers and dog chain style cleaning chains only show up in post war reissued RGs. The dog chains usually in RGs reissued with the NVA (East German Army), together with the aluminum oiler. If the oiler is war time, it should be marked. (see photos)
The manufacturers of the RG already had subcontractors for chains, oilers and Hülsenkopfwischer in 1941. No need for Steyr to jump in.
I do not say it is a fake, since I could not proof this. But with more than 200 RGs in my own collection and another hundrets I had in my hands, I dare to say that I have serious concerns.
Wolfgang
 

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