ϟϟ Weapons Questions.

First of all, IMHO, 99% of so called SS Mausers are FAKE.

And folks have been faking them since at least the early 1970s, when I bought my 1st Mauser rifle.

After the start of the war the Waffen SS drew the vast majority of it's weapons directly from army supply, prior to that they were forced to acquire their weapons from other sources. The regular armed forces did not like the SS. The Waffen SS was not permitted to wear the national symbol on the breast of their tunic, because the Wehrmacht considered itself the only legitimate waffenträger of the German nation, which placed the Waffen SS in the position of being Hitler's private political army.

Himmler, to be sure, was always scheming to expand his arena of control, to include weapons production, and to a certain extent he achieved limited success, because he could supply endless slave laborers to industry. In reality though his plans came to very little, given the small numbers actually built for the SS, compared to the millions produced for the regular German armed forces......

Finally, I suggest you stay away from anything SS marked, as most are 4th Reich turds, if you know what I mean.....

Totally agree with Dave above.

John.

While I agree with what Dave says I have to disagree with the idea that we should simply not collect it. If we give in and don't collect these items then the hobby will die (look to Civil War Collecting as an example). We need honest people with a passion for the hobby to research the area, expose fakes, call out the fakers and help educate others. I have heard this same idea about everything German. And typically the person saying it is commenting on a area of collecting that they know nothing about (ie, US collectors always tell me not to collect K98k rifles yet they have never owned an original).

If many of us younger guys listened to this then we wouldn't collect anything German and this forum would be full of collectors all over the age of 60. I like the method of Hambone; do extensive research on items, buy originals, help others identify originals and then light up any person caught faking stuff. Just my opinion.

Now for the OP, when it comes to SS stuff I can only comment on rifles. Finding a SS K98k is not difficult. Contract rifles are easy to find and very easy to identify. Buy the books in the link at the top of the page (particularly Volume II).

I agree completely, this is the smartest thing I’ve ever heard in my time on this earth, especially the stuff about Hamboner.

mdarnell19 said:

While I agree with what Dave says I have to disagree with the idea that we should simply not collect it. If we give in and don't collect these items then the hobby will die (look to Civil War Collecting as an example). We need honest people with a passion for the hobby to research the area, expose fakes, call out the fakers and help educate others. I have heard this same idea about everything German. And typically the person saying it is commenting on a area of collecting that they know nothing about (ie, US collectors always tell me not to collect K98k rifles yet they have never owned an original).

If many of us younger guys listened to this then we wouldn't collect anything German and this forum would be full of collectors all over the age of 60. I like the method of Hambone; do extensive research on items, buy originals, help others identify originals and then light up any person caught faking stuff. Just my opinion.

Now for the OP, when it comes to SS stuff I can only comment on rifles. Finding a SS K98k is not difficult. Contract rifles are easy to find and very easy to identify. Buy the books in the link at the top of the page (particularly Volume II).

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Very good info Matt most people that want SS rifles are either too afraid to buy them due to the lack of knowledge. And I have met plenty of U.S collectors that say avoid the k98k rifles due to the amount of fakes. But they seem to forget there are many fake M1 rifles, 1903 rifles, snipers, M1 carbines especially the paratroopers models, 1911 pistols, just to name a few!

I tell new collectors all the time build your knowledge first and make friends in the hobby before spending the money. Spending a few dollars on books and lots of beer with k98k collectors. Sometimes waffles that means you Dave and Mike! Has saved me thousands over the years! Not to mention has gotten me some great k98k rifles for my own collection. Plus made some great friends.

I've just stopped paying much for collectables that have been widely reproduced, unless an item's provenance is above suspicion. That is, something where there's no doubt as to originality and chain of custody. Remember the WWII German belt buckle debacle, where the fakes became so good that there was no way to differentiate them from originals? Some large collections became worthless about that time.

bnz41john said:

Totally agree with Dave above.

John.

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I totally disagree.
If you closely study available knowledge, you can buy SS rifles with confidence.

I have just seen so many people get hosed over the years that I do not recommend SS marked rifles, unless you have money to burn, are very lucky or really do your homework before laying down your hard earned cash.

When I started collecting in , dare I say it, 1970, legitimate SS rifles were not that expensive. We, who collected WW2 rifles, in general, were considered bottom feeders by the elites who never thought these obsolete junkers would ever bring over $200.00, even with Hitler's finger prints on the stock.

Today, IMHO, there are at least 500 bad SS rifles for every good one out there. Furthermore, I would dare say that there are more "SS" marked rifles floating around today, than were ever legitimately produced and it's the same or worse with sniper variants.

At one time there were 2 good old boys of German descent out of Mount Dora, Florida, who peddled lots of fake snipers, bogus SS marked rifles, and other assorted "rare" guns, at every Tulsa show.

Somewhere in Hell they are sitting next to Hitler laughing about the poor bastards they screwed for decades.

But, it is your money, and you can do as you wish, with your money.

I have to agree that they can be deadly to collect without much study of the photos on this site and observation of original rifles.

Warrior1354 said:

Very good info Matt most people that want SS rifles are either too afraid to buy them due to the lack of knowledge. And I have met plenty of U.S collectors that say avoid the k98k rifles due to the amount of fakes. But they seem to forget there are many fake M1 rifles, 1903 rifles, snipers, M1 carbines especially the paratroopers models, 1911 pistols, just to name a few!

.

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So true! Much easier to fake an "original" m1 since there are no serial numbers on the parts.

I think contract rifles alone kill the figures thrown out here, they pop up all the time, so I presume the discussion is based on the readily apparent flavors of ss rifles. It’s also funny to think about US collectors thoughts on the subject, German weapons are by far the most prolific “original” WW2 weapons in the country. “All correct” isn’t original

I agree, SDP contracts are dirt common, they easily equal and probably surpass the SDP Army contracts and in upper grades out number them (they are common). I do not think you can make a credible argument that these were used in any significant way (as in combat)...

The other variations, or flavors, are far more elusive in upper grades and are no different than any other ordnance build or rework, - they are easily "restored" and it is often a matter of opinion where the legitimate ends and fraud begins. They are a minefield to navigate and take specialized study and only a few can actually be considered "researchers" in the field, - ScottB is well known to have made considerable efforts to gain access too, disassemble and study their characteristics, this is "research", what isn't research is doing internet or forum searches (research is assembling fact from observations)...

Outside of the SDP contracts SS rifles are a minefield and Dave is right, they are best avoided (I would argue this is due to their perceived desirability and lack of specialized research, right now the only credible research is in Mike's and Bruce's books, which I haven't reviewed and probably am not qualified to judge it); like with the P.08 the field is plagued with skilled humpers and restorers (almost all P.08 and most high end SS), high prices for high quality or rarity draws skilled humpers like shite draws flies, add the dark side of SS anything, the worst in human nature, and it removes some of the guilt of dishonesty (to the degree humpers suffer from guilt) because you are stealing or defrauding stupid or twisted people...

flynaked said:

I think contract rifles alone kill the figures thrown out here, they pop up all the time, so I presume the discussion is based on the readily apparent flavors of ss rifles. It’s also funny to think about US collectors thoughts on the subject, German weapons are by far the most prolific “original” WW2 weapons in the country. “All correct” isn’t original

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