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Thread: Japanese contract Vz-24

  1. #21
    Senior Member AndyB's Avatar
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    I believed too for long time the C prefixes rifles were delivered to Japan, after J.Smid researches in archives, there is no exact details about the serials or there are many movement done in late of 1938 and early 1939, so it should be sayed followed:
    -C prefix lower ranges 0-40000 were send in 1938 to China
    -certainly some numbers of P series went there too, unknown quantity and serial numbers
    -some of the P prefixes were accepted into CS army in turbulent 1938 period,later exported
    -higher numbered C prefix went as part of delivery to Japan in early 1939(many excellent pieces are confirmed as GI bringbacks)
    -some rifles of the P range went too to Japan contract
    -some unknown marked rifles send to Japan, probably of CS inventory?
    -reason of all this missmatch was realisation of first large romanian contract for 300000 rifles, and short delivery termines, secondly the not accepting of romanians the chinese Vz.24 rifles because of lower quality steel material on sighting
    -i assume some of the 1938 rifles to China, could be too captured by Japanese in war?
    result is there is not only one letter prefix and one closed serial bunch delivered to Japan and to China.
    I hope it helps a little.B.r.Andy
    Last edited by AndyB; 12-12-2019 at 04:33 AM.

  2. #22
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    Thank you Andy. I didn't know any of the "C" prefixes had been delivered to China as well as Japan.

  3. #23
    Community Organizer Hambone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Thank you Andy. I didn't know any of the "C" prefixes had been delivered to China as well as Japan.
    Yes. I've not understood the P prefixes to be primarily and directly the Chinese contract, always the "C". China is "Čína", i.e., "C". The P may have been sold to China at some point, but those were primarily the Japanese contract, not the Chinese contract. The overwhelming number of Ps have a Japanese connection. Some, including mine, have Czech military acceptance in 1938, but have Japanese provenance nonetheless. Remember that Germany formally "annexed" (or was given for "peace") Czechoslovakia on September 30, 1938. On September 27, 1940, the Axis powers were formally formed as Germany, Italy, and Japan under the Tripartite Pact. Before then Germany was aligning itself with Japan. It is doubtful then that Germany would want the country it annexed selling arms to the enemy of its new ally, Japan. I would think shortly after September 30, 1938, any arms at Brno I and II would be provided to Axis / satellites. This all seems quite logical.

    My P (Farb owned it at one time). The stock paint markings are associated with Japanese use:
    http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....Czech-Army-use

    One of my Cs (I have another):
    http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....-C-Prefix-1937
    “Not every item of news should be published. Rather must those who control news policies endeavor to make every item of news serve a certain purpose.” - Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, 1933-1945

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambone View Post
    Yes. I've not understood the P prefixes to be primarily and directly the Chinese contract, always the "C". China is "Čína", i.e., "C". The P may have been sold to China at some point, but those were primarily the Japanese contract, not the Chinese contract. The overwhelming number of Ps have a Japanese connection. Some, including mine, have Czech military acceptance in 1938, but have Japanese provenance nonetheless. Remember that Germany formally "annexed" (or was given for "peace") Czechoslovakia on September 30, 1938. On September 27, 1940, the Axis powers were formally formed as Germany, Italy, and Japan under the Tripartite Pact. Before then Germany was aligning itself with Japan. It is doubtful then that Germany would want the country it annexed selling arms to the enemy of its new ally, Japan. I would think shortly after September 30, 1938, any arms at Brno I and II would be provided to Axis / satellites. This all seems quite logical.

    My P (Farb owned it at one time). The stock paint markings are associated with Japanese use:
    http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....Czech-Army-use

    One of my Cs (I have another):
    http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....-C-Prefix-1937


    Nice rifles Craig! I think my misinformation stems from MMROTW by Ball. His book states that the VZ24's sent to China all had the 1937 date and the "P" prefix s/n. He also states that "most were captured by the Japanese". There are other errors in his book though, as well as some misidentified photos.

  5. #25
    Senior Member AndyB's Avatar
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    "I would think shortly after September 30, 1938, any arms at Brno I and II would be provided to Axis / satellites."
    This is not fully true, offcourse as in september 1938 was only captured by germans the Sudetenland not Brno, secondly there was already signed contract that should be realised. So the last delivery to China was realised in 3/39 and has nothing to do with Japan as ally of Germans, ofcoarse post 3/39 were production influenced by germans, anyway the ZB were financial overhelmed by germans legally and in end of 1939,when i remember correctly. Some export to Sowjetunion and Yugoslavia and other countries were realised in same period. Zbrojovka Brno was never captured like polish Radom or french armories.b.r.Andy

  6. #26
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    I don't know how I missed this thread the first time it came up.
    I have been a lurker here for some time, but my main area of expertise has been Japanese weapons for over 35 years.
    I don't have any new information to share with your group over what has already been said/written on the supposed contracts to Japan concerning these weapons. I do believe (as Hambone has already indicated) that these VZ 24's, Italian type I's, Mauser standard model and K98K's were all destined for the IJN. Much the same as the German Luftwaffe played second fiddle to the Wehrmacht in obtaining the most up-to-date arms of the period, the Japanese Navy (special naval landing forces) personal had trouble in securing the T-38 family of rifles in the late 1930's and the new T-99 rifles in 1940 and later. Japan did not have the development and manufacturing in place to supply their vast area of conquered territories.

    I am posting a few photos of my C series rifle. Although it does not have an original sling, it does have a rack number written in original Japanese which reads 234, as well as a very scarce original Japanese made celluloid rotating muzzle cover. Also posted are an original 15 rd box of Japanese manufactured 7.9 Mauser ammunition with 5 rd stripper clip of the same. Box is dated Showa 15.12 (1940, December).

    I hope this info is beneficial to your group.

    Regards,
    James Angle
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  7. #27
    Community Organizer Hambone's Avatar
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    Thank you James, beautiful C prefix and outstanding accessories
    “Not every item of news should be published. Rather must those who control news policies endeavor to make every item of news serve a certain purpose.” - Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, 1933-1945

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