Interesting Behoerden S84/98 T3
- Thread starter pwcosol
- Start date
Hi
Portugal M 937, eventually not delivered, in my opinion.
To be sure, you have to show the whole bayonet and scabbard.
I am pretty certain the bayonet was numbered to match the 37th Mauser produced, Portuguese M1937 contract rifle. The first run of 10,000 rifles were in the no-letter bloc. However, few bayonets ever turn up in this range (I have #6615). My belief is many of these rifles with their bayonets, got shipped to Portugal's few remaining colonies in Africa. Many likely stayed there. Early M37 contract rifles are often found with heavy wear, and pitting along the wood line (where barrel/action mate with the stock). Use in Africa and poor maintenance could certainly account for this. Unfortunately, as Grimlin13 mentioned, the finish has been removed from the blade from tip to fuller and from fuller to blade edge...all the way to the ricasso. The schmuck whom did this (for what reason escapes me) ought to have gotten stuck with it afterwards!
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This is very interesting. I had never seen a no letter block 1937 Portuguese contract. Had been under the assumption that all were letter blocked and to the matching rifles. Reference books have also indicated this to be that case. Regardless, thanks for sharing .....
Understandable as they are not common. Attached photo of a later M37 contract bayo in the D-bloc. Note the somewhat subdued blue to the finish & grease-impregnated wooden grips (1st photo). This is typical of the majority of both rifles & bayonets. They must have been used, given a marginal cleaning, & stored long-term. I suspect the grease may have been more of a detriment than a benefit. Also, rust on these arms is quite common. The 2nd & 3rd pics are of the no-letter-bloc example. There are some rust spots on both bayonet, scabbard, and grip-stains. However, the hi-polish blue remains intact. This is how they all should have looked at the beginning (blade is much brighter than photo portrays as I got too much reflection otherwise). As for whom the manufacturer was, I would put my bet on Euf Horster.
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AndyB
Senior Member
It must be not a portugal contract, for this speaks the no letter range, the S on lower ricasso , in that period were realised some other exports in 1937, so is possible the rifles and bayonets were send to other country. The mentioned Portuguese Mo937 is in majority marked with letter, but exist pieces that has gone through postwar portugal refurbishment, were is only serialed to number not to letter or the letter is different. I would compare it with normal Mo937 fonts etc, anyway the serialing was done by Mauser,when delivering rifles.b.r.Andy
You bring up some interesting points, Andy. To my knowledge, Mauser typically began runs of rifles starting with a no-letter-block. The range could be of either 10,000 or 100,000 units per block. The Standard-Modell is such an example. Should a customer want to purchase bayonets for rifles acquired from Mauserwerke, they could buy through them or another manufacturer, to their specifications. However, these behoerden would not have had German Waffenampt acceptance markings. However, the M37/41 contracts are an exception, as Portugal specified in a trade deal with Germany, the weapons must be of the same grade/standard as those used by the German military. Because of this, it is doubtful the #37 bayonet example was made for any other contract. In addition, the lack of a manufacturer marking, specific location of the serial number and presence of period WaA253 acceptance markings reinforce this as well.
However, we can agree spares were provided to Portugal for these rifles, and this would undoubtedly have included some bayonets as well. The question is whether such spares were numbered to match rifles needing replacement for lost or damaged bayonets. I cannot recall ever seeing what I would consider a M37 contract, unnumbered "spare" bayonet, but the unnumbered M41 examples are well documented.
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AndyB
Senior Member
The adding as spare parts could be offcourse real, in book of Bruce K. and Mike S. Volume I, are some deliveries to China and Japan mentioned, i saw one or 2 of these bayonets they were partly too WaA accepted and some were wout prefix. I would look to other Portuguese Mo937 bayonets for lower ricasso, but dont remember seeing a letter on that place stamped.
When You look to 6615 piece, is real the pommel was refurbished and in front of the digit near wood line is remain of letter that was weakly stamped, for this speaks the blueing in rust areas? So possible there was faint C or D ,E letter.
The early Mo937 rifles, were brought direct from army deliveries coded S/42 1937, in middle of year, so there are letter suffixes on rifles and bayonets. It didnt start from 0 wout suffix.b.r.Andy
When You look to 6615 piece, is real the pommel was refurbished and in front of the digit near wood line is remain of letter that was weakly stamped, for this speaks the blueing in rust areas? So possible there was faint C or D ,E letter.
The early Mo937 rifles, were brought direct from army deliveries coded S/42 1937, in middle of year, so there are letter suffixes on rifles and bayonets. It didnt start from 0 wout suffix.b.r.Andy
Andy:
I got #6615 from cabinet and after very good look, guarantee bayonet & scabbard are original finish. Serial number on left side of grip is not restamp and no evidence of any previous numbers or letters. There was some dried grease around cross guard, so I cleaned this up and was surprised to find "S" stamp on underside of blade (same as #37). Two thoughts occur to me regarding serial numbers. First is Portugal likely received extensive repair & maintenance tools from Mauser to service all weapons received from them. This would have included letter & number die stamps. So, if a bayonet was to either have new or replacement number applied to match bayonet to rifle, why would it not be complete serial number with letter prefix (if needed)? Second is the unusual location for serial number on M37 contract. Typically number would be on crossguard (as found on later M41 contract K98k and other contract bayonets). The only logical reason is Portugal wanted the numbers applied to the left side of the pommel.
As for the actual Portuguese M37 contract rifles (which the bayonets should follow), I will be contacting a good friend whom is a strong Mauser Oberndorf rifle collector. I will attempt to find out for sure how many M37 contract rifles, etc. were delivered to Portugal. You mentioned first deliveries were S/42 1937 rifles. These may have been from many thousands of K98k receivers Germany made in violation of Treaty of Versailles (and were caught doing so by Allied inspectors). Of these perhaps the majority had the receivers markings machined off, and they were used for both Standard-Modell & later Portuguese contract rifles. This is evident by "Ghost-Receiver" markings seen under the blued finish. When contract was cancelled, the reverse happened. Undelivered Portuguese-crested receivers had the stamping scrubbed & over-struck with "byf 41 or 42" military stamping. This is seen because "Ghost Portuguese Crest" marking is evident under blue finish.
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AndyB
Senior Member
Interesting, my both portuguese Mo937 have not the S on lower ricasso, is possible when there is no other letter prefix? on 6615, note the picture, it could be the 37 and 6615 are both from same bunch of bayonets marked S on lower ricasso. I personally couldnt confirm its a portuguese contract.
Personally dont believe the portueguese got fonts and dies, as the postwar refurbishment didnt have similar font letters, and are mostly suffix marked with large capital letters.
About rifles K98k they got 40000 rifles, and they are all S/42 1937 marked was a german army delivery, that went to Portugal.
Personally dont believe the portueguese got fonts and dies, as the postwar refurbishment didnt have similar font letters, and are mostly suffix marked with large capital letters.
About rifles K98k they got 40000 rifles, and they are all S/42 1937 marked was a german army delivery, that went to Portugal.
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Thanks for the additional information on the M37 contract. Areas on pommel picture of #6615 are result of either rust/moisture. I will take some detailed photos of entire bayonet later today... (now posted). On D 18933, no marking on underside of blade. When speaking to a friend today, he reminded me Karabiner 98k Volume I has a excellent revue of the Portuguese contract rifles. As I have all the books, will spend some time with the material and see if I can figure out where #37 & #6615 fit into the picture...
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M1937-A Oberndorf contract for Portugal
Interesting thread as usual here so will attempt to add to the knowledge base here.
Will go back and review the Lockhoven data that I have and also contact Jon.
I am of the opinion that the 100,000 rifles delivered to Portugal under the contact
were broken down into 5 blocks of 20,000 rifles - A through E blocks.
Remember that standard K98ks (the first 40,000 rifles) were diverted from standard K98k production.
This first batch will have the added contract SN added to the left rear of the stock.
These would have been blocks A-B.
The remaining 60,000 would have been the M937-A released under blocks C-E for an approximate total of 60,000 rifles.
To my knowledge, the bayonets released with the rifles, would have been number/letter matched to the rifle as most
known examples are. The examples featured in this thread without a leadiing letter block are unique.
My example with factory matched bayonet has no 'S' stamped on the rear of the blade as shown in this thread.
Horster was a main contractor for bayonets supplied under the contract, but I am unsure as to any other contractors.
Interesting thread as usual here so will attempt to add to the knowledge base here.
Will go back and review the Lockhoven data that I have and also contact Jon.
I am of the opinion that the 100,000 rifles delivered to Portugal under the contact
were broken down into 5 blocks of 20,000 rifles - A through E blocks.
Remember that standard K98ks (the first 40,000 rifles) were diverted from standard K98k production.
This first batch will have the added contract SN added to the left rear of the stock.
These would have been blocks A-B.
The remaining 60,000 would have been the M937-A released under blocks C-E for an approximate total of 60,000 rifles.
To my knowledge, the bayonets released with the rifles, would have been number/letter matched to the rifle as most
known examples are. The examples featured in this thread without a leadiing letter block are unique.
My example with factory matched bayonet has no 'S' stamped on the rear of the blade as shown in this thread.
Horster was a main contractor for bayonets supplied under the contract, but I am unsure as to any other contractors.
AndyB
Senior Member
As mentioned before, i could only say there is no confirmation about S stamp on lower ricasso with Portuguese contract, but replacement could be real, personally believe there is different letter under the S, possible o or something else. About blueing i couldnt say 100% , but it looks like good one, most real front side was better preserved as the reverse one.
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Thought I would add this in. These rifles were advertised in the 1980s, and I think before the GCA'68 was amended to allow import of military surplus arms. The K98s are advertised as S/42 1937 marked and with accompanying S84/98 T3. There is no mention of them being Portuguese (as were later rifles with the crest). So where would W.F. get a bunch of S42/1937 K98s...? This probably explains where some of them went. Unfortunately the photo is on old, crappy copy paper from the time, and fading until nothing legible remains is typical. I think the original advert was either in DWJ or Waffen Revue. One more comment on the numbering location on these bayonets...both the Portuguese Steyr-Solothurn MP34 & M1904 Mauser-Verueiro bayonets have the weapon serial number stamped on the right side of the pommel, too.
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German market import M937A rifles
Fred there were a large number of the first series contract imported into Germany.
I would assume that the bayonets would have also been bundled with the rifles as Portugal had no use for them.
The early S/42 coded rifles supplied under the contract are way more prevalent over in Germany than they are in the US.
I would bet that most of that part of the early contract ended up in W. Germany as surplus.
When I got the data from Jon, he also gave me data that Lockhoven had accumulated from examples he logged in Germany.
Fred there were a large number of the first series contract imported into Germany.
I would assume that the bayonets would have also been bundled with the rifles as Portugal had no use for them.
The early S/42 coded rifles supplied under the contract are way more prevalent over in Germany than they are in the US.
I would bet that most of that part of the early contract ended up in W. Germany as surplus.
When I got the data from Jon, he also gave me data that Lockhoven had accumulated from examples he logged in Germany.
