K43 AC45 dual code
- Thread starter ls6man
- Start date
robber3
Member
What concerns me about the stock is that there is no acceptance proof on the underside of the Rifle grip. These are stamped when the receiver is mated to the stock, and the fact that this stock has the serial # stamped on it ...... it should have this acceptance proof on it. The fact that it is missing the 2 E/214 final stock proofs on the right side is not as concerning as it missing the one under the stock grip ! I am assuming it is not there, or any sign it ever was correct?
Would it be possible to get detailed close ups from different angles of the other F block stock serial?
As to why a stamp is missing..doesn’t it stand to reason if the rifle wasn’t accepted it is possible it was liberated before whatever stamps should or shouldn’t normally be encountered were applied? Not sure if anyone else has dabbled in muscle or vettes but by doing so you learn not everything is “cookie cutter.”
It would be nice for Brian to look at this rifle since he isn’t far away I believe and maybe he can bring QVE45 2506 with him
As to why a stamp is missing..doesn’t it stand to reason if the rifle wasn’t accepted it is possible it was liberated before whatever stamps should or shouldn’t normally be encountered were applied? Not sure if anyone else has dabbled in muscle or vettes but by doing so you learn not everything is “cookie cutter.”
It would be nice for Brian to look at this rifle since he isn’t far away I believe and maybe he can bring QVE45 2506 with him
robber3
Member
Would it be possible to get detailed close ups from different angles of the other F block stock serial?
As to why a stamp is missing..doesn’t it stand to reason if the rifle wasn’t accepted it is possible it was liberated before whatever stamps should or shouldn’t normally be encountered were applied? Not sure if anyone else has dabbled in muscle or vettes but by doing so you learn not everything is “cookie cutter.”
It would be nice for Brian to look at this rifle since he isn’t far away I believe and maybe he can bring QVE45 2506 with him
I would think if the serial # was stamped into the stock that the receiver was mated to it, and the proof should be there.
You are also assuming the worker tasked with doing it didn’t just forget, wasn’t preoccupied with production during the literal last days of the war, and just didn’t say F it.. I’m sorry but this type of thought is why a ton of righteous rifles get screwed with.. trying to make them into what a collector 80 years later thinks.
We can debate steel wool or not. I’m saying not based on almost 30 years of collecting including having old rifles of mine in your collections...if it was done must have been the most delicate use of it, as areas where it would have been used.. show no evidence of its use..and still have texture..
All of this being said reminds me of a BNZ45 walnut stock rifle I owned 25 years ago..tried selling it through an iteration of this forum years (19 now) ago only for guys to poo poo it as matching but sanded.., they didn’t like the bolt cutout..but couldn’t explain the lack of sanding evidence anywhere else including the eagle H.. fast forward a bunch of years.. now it is unsanded and in a collection and I think book... because other examples popped up showing very similar cut outs.. and info changes..
Just food for thought.. either way this is a cool rifle
Zeppelin5000
Senior Member
Here is the data sheet for the dual code f blocks from my copy of Hitler's Garands. In the markings column, it shows the wrist area blank, as it possibly not having a marking, but on the stock, it shows the WaA 359 as being on the left side of the butt. However, as it says in the bottom left, the sheet shouldn't be used in absolute conclusions because not many were found to be surveyed. But the fact that that wrist column on this page is blank, does that mean the 5 dual coded K43s surveyed had no markings in that area? I'd assume so.
Also, according to the book, yours is the #9 rarest G/K43 variation.
Also, according to the book, yours is the #9 rarest G/K43 variation.
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robber3
Member
That’s always going to be the case when there is a question about a Rifle. I agree a lot of legit Rifles get a bad rap that are questionable, but if as a Collector like me I will pass on a purchase if there is any question at all, and then there is no question. The Rifle appears to be sanded, and all stock proofs are missing so this Rifle has some questionable things going on, and you seem to have what you feel are reasons to defend this. Assuming the Mount is real, and the Rifle is all matching you got a good deal at the price you paid. As long as you are happy that’s all tha matters !!
Lol..If you can prove to me the guy on whatever day this thing was made put the acceptance stamp in the wrist.. I will happily say someone post war removed it.. but you can’t and the actual rifle in hand “says” it wasn’t ever applied.. not to mention the sample to inspect is what 10-20 rifles.. if that?? If you choose not to be open minded to the realities of collecting WW2 (regardless of nation) I’m sorry..
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robber3
Member
LOL well I care about my opinion, and your right I wouldn’t be interested ! , but to cut the BS, again as long as you are happy that’s all that counts, and it is a cool Rifle, and yes I am particular in the Rifles I collect as there are pics on the forum of a couple, but that’s my prerogative!
robber3
Member
I hope you do, and maybe having the Rifle in hand he will be able to determine it has not been sanded, and proofs never applied ! Regardless it’s a very cool Rifle !
Tiger 2 Tank
Senior Member
I can help with your serial number question if I understand what you are asking for.
K.43 ac45 f blocks are as follows:
These rifles are known: K.43 qve45 #3954f, then the next reported and known rifle is K.43 ac45 #4589f (the start). Last known (or rather reported) is K.43 ac45 #7620f. This rifle is also mentioned or shown in “Hitler’s Garands”, page 131. Last known rifle is K.43 qve45 #8981f. K.43 ac45 rifles are mixed in with K.43 qve45’s, but the ac45’s seem to be concentrated heavily in a couple of numeric block areas-but still some qve45’s in with them.
I own the third highest qve45 reported or known (at this time anyway) K.43 qve45 #8713f. Yours should be finalized with two e/214 stamps on the side of the stock since BLM was doing these rifles at this point. Unless your rifle was never final proofed. Mine is also wrist stamped proofed with a (BLM proof-not Walther) “dimple” wrist stamp and a e/214 wrist proof. This was a proof that shows the stock and action were mated together. My late K.43 ac45 a block is not side stock final proofed, but is keel and wrist proofed. I know for a fact it has never been sanded as there is still mill marks in the wood where those stamps are normally-which sanding and or steel wool will kill the mill marks.
Mill marks, along with stamps and “wood chatter” are what we look for to really verify whether wood has been wooled down and or sanded. Mill marks are not totally always there, so just because a rifle doesn’t have mill marks doesn’t mean it has been sanded or anything. So, that alone cannot be a determining factor. I looked at your photos more closely. Here’s what I see: I see your serial number being too dull and the letter block almost non-existant. I do see evidence in a few areas where the mill marks and wood chatter are present, but the mill marks are almost all gone but present especially near the butt stock plate. I “think” what happened was some careful steel wooling has occurred; but carefully to the serial number area, heavier in the non-vital areas and none applied to near the end of the stock.
I am going to use Brian Kowalski’s K.43 ac45 #5326f, which is shown in our picture section, as an example of stock mill marks to look for. His rifle seems to be the “go to” on this because the photos show it so well and it’s kind of close to your rifle. Notice the final two e/214 stamps in with the stock mill marks.
Please don’t think I am downing your rifle. It’s a really rare rifle and absolutely cooler with the un-numbered scope mount. Those are also hard to find. Just hoping to clear up some confusion that may exist on the stock.
K.43 ac45 f blocks are as follows:
These rifles are known: K.43 qve45 #3954f, then the next reported and known rifle is K.43 ac45 #4589f (the start). Last known (or rather reported) is K.43 ac45 #7620f. This rifle is also mentioned or shown in “Hitler’s Garands”, page 131. Last known rifle is K.43 qve45 #8981f. K.43 ac45 rifles are mixed in with K.43 qve45’s, but the ac45’s seem to be concentrated heavily in a couple of numeric block areas-but still some qve45’s in with them.
I own the third highest qve45 reported or known (at this time anyway) K.43 qve45 #8713f. Yours should be finalized with two e/214 stamps on the side of the stock since BLM was doing these rifles at this point. Unless your rifle was never final proofed. Mine is also wrist stamped proofed with a (BLM proof-not Walther) “dimple” wrist stamp and a e/214 wrist proof. This was a proof that shows the stock and action were mated together. My late K.43 ac45 a block is not side stock final proofed, but is keel and wrist proofed. I know for a fact it has never been sanded as there is still mill marks in the wood where those stamps are normally-which sanding and or steel wool will kill the mill marks.
Mill marks, along with stamps and “wood chatter” are what we look for to really verify whether wood has been wooled down and or sanded. Mill marks are not totally always there, so just because a rifle doesn’t have mill marks doesn’t mean it has been sanded or anything. So, that alone cannot be a determining factor. I looked at your photos more closely. Here’s what I see: I see your serial number being too dull and the letter block almost non-existant. I do see evidence in a few areas where the mill marks and wood chatter are present, but the mill marks are almost all gone but present especially near the butt stock plate. I “think” what happened was some careful steel wooling has occurred; but carefully to the serial number area, heavier in the non-vital areas and none applied to near the end of the stock.
I am going to use Brian Kowalski’s K.43 ac45 #5326f, which is shown in our picture section, as an example of stock mill marks to look for. His rifle seems to be the “go to” on this because the photos show it so well and it’s kind of close to your rifle. Notice the final two e/214 stamps in with the stock mill marks.
Please don’t think I am downing your rifle. It’s a really rare rifle and absolutely cooler with the un-numbered scope mount. Those are also hard to find. Just hoping to clear up some confusion that may exist on the stock.
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I'm sorry...you lost me...so you are saying because this rifle has few milling marks, the serial is lightly stamped, and there are no WaA214's in the wrist or right side...it has been sanded...heavily in the area of the WaA's but not in the serial area?
I don't agree with those statements and here is why..
You referenced a late AC45 A block you own, which has a lot of chatter and no WaA's. If that is correct it is because of 1 of 4 things..
1) The stock had them and it has been heavily sanded
2) The stock is not original to the rifle
3) Your rifle was never accepted and sat at Walther until liberated
4) The WaA's were simply left off...your assumption and I'm sure correct
However I used to own AC45 9303 A, which was stone mint (actually a dual guide rifle), had a lot of chatter and had 2 pristine WaA359's present on the left side. I've also owned other AC45's in other blocks which had the WaA's applied...so either your rifle is one of the top 2 scenarios...or it is indeed number 3 or 4...# 3 is highly unlikely as Walther was moving parts and rifles to other plants, so an "A" block rifle would not have sat...So scenario 4 is most likely..and if it is most likely for you....it can be likely here.
BTW...I'm looking for AC45 9303 A if anyone has it...would love it back...
Now let's consider what the "F" block rifles are...AC produced parts which were assembled at BLM. We know the receivers are AC, but what else? In this case the stock is a Walther produced piece or made for Walther. We know this due to the flat bottom fore grip and the position of the stock recoil lug. I believe a BLM stock will fit a late AC receiver but not the other way around. Since the recoil lug is the dead give away it is an AC stock. We know on AC finished stocks there is often significant chatter present in AC45 rifles...but not seen on QVE 45 produced rifles.
Brian K has QVE45 2605 which I used to own and sold him in 2000 or 2001. It is un-sanded and doesn't have significant chatter on the stock. I'm sure he can post pics of it here...We know when observing BLM produced stocks the amount of stock finishing is greater than AC rifles. BLM adhered longer to serializing the rifle components as well as stock finishing. So it stands to reason if they received a stock from AC they would have finished it to their standards...not AC. Hence minimal chatter.
BTW Brian I'd love to get QVE45 2506 back....
Since we know the stock serial was applied by BLM and it matches general location (more on that later), font and size...we can assume it is the original stock to the rifle serial....hence an AC supplied receiver and stock (plus other components) finished at BLM to their standards.
Now to the WaA's....We are to assume your AC45 "A" block is original but devoid of WaA's...we know there are other rifles...both AC and QVE which are original un-sanded and are devoid of them...We also know WaA's are commonly expected though and rifles in all blocks had them if accepted...Yet this rifle is being critiqued for a lack of them, and you are saying since your later rifle has them....this one should as well...but your AC45 "A" block doesn't...but that is ok...that is illogical.
When evaluating a rifle it is best done with it in your hands..when looking at this rifle one doesn't see any ghosting of a WaA on either side or the wrist. In order to completely remove a stamp you'd have to alter the stock sufficiently to not leave a "ghost." You can run a straight edge throughout the stock and there aren't gap associated with sanding. Also when sanding (steel wool cuts laminate as well) there will be visible cutting of the fibres. Using steel wool on laminate or walnut produces a smooth feeling to the wood as it cuts the rough natural texture off.
There are neither visible sanding or a smooth texture to areas not normally contacted by hands. The area across the serial is rough, the stock flats, the area in front of the magazine (rearward of normal grasping), the areas around the recoil lug, etc.
If what you are saying were true....someone sanded the stock WaA's off and was careful around the serial number....there would be a "ghost" impression of the acceptance WaA's, sanding noticeable to a straight edge, and a smoothness to the stock. Please show me where the WaA's were...I will be happy to photo what you need.
We know from HG (pg 350) another "F" block (4832 F) rifle didn't have wrist proofing...same as this rifle. We also know there is a great range of reported to be un-sanded original 1945 rifles which exhibit varying degrees of WaA's, so why is it not conceivable this is the case here. Especially when using pictures and not having it "in hand"
The issue I believe is the serial number depth...which candidly should be best seen in person. When I look at HG pg 166..I see a late QVE 45 with what appears to be a similar depth serial strike to this rifle. When I look at the pics of Brian's rifle...the one pic of the serial candidly shows a very light strike, which is centered in the stock. The pic of the right side WaA's shows a VERY light strike...so why is it conceivable a light strike didn't happen here....and what is to say it is even light? Can Brain post pics of QVE45 2506...not heavily struck from memory.
I'm guessing the "6" is concerning as the left side is not noticeable....but the gang stamp was not centered on the stock and was moved left, so the "6" would be partially on the rounded edge of the heel of the stock. This also can be seen with the "4" being heavy...due to pressure and angle of stamp relative to material...Compare Brian's stamp to this one and the off center stamp is readily obvious...this coupled with other factors...force of strike, pressure to the gang stamp and angle of stamp...can and will alter the appearance of original stamps....Don't believe it...look at US cartouches and engine pads on muscle cars..varying degrees of original stamps ranging from faint to a 800lb gorilla.
When viewing the serial with the naked eye...it is readily readable...the numerals appear uniform in depth where expected based on stamp position, curvature of the stock, etc. If the stock was hit with steel wool it was extremely light and candidly I doubt it was.
At this point I'm tired of discussing the rifle...as unless you have it in your hands...it is conjecture at best.
https://imgur.com/gallery/eRoC3Vd
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armenjs
Senior Member
Hello OP. I am looking at original post and I can't tell what post #3 is talking about, maybe the album was edited, and further on thread I can see the stock pic/album. To be honest, I didn't think it was sanded but examining the pictures further, it looks like some areas have been touched and not others. for example rear and buttplate areas are not touched. I don't think it ever had acceptance proof. I know the feeling... your are proud at your achievement just saying, please don't take it as criticism. You have a nice rare bird leave it at that. The mount is super early and fine. hey cmon you see all the drama with supper early and supper late items... It's like BF you don't know where to look LOL! btw send info for Claus.
Model
Senior Member
+1
From what I can see in the pictures stock has been sanded/cleaned. That being said I like the Gun, It all comes down to what the Op paid for it.
Hell I would like to have it in my collection for the right price.
Just because was asked and some have thought any stock work was cleaning only
A couple of links to more stock pics. I tried the talcum method and couldn’t lift any old WaA’s in the wrist or sides of the stock. Don’t think they were ever there..looks like a “ring” dent in the area and nothing conclusive. Raw white laminate in action and would bet behind butt plate..can see in cracks between stock.
Heel of stock is rough down stock including across serial and in other areas.. if stock was cleaned was only done in certain areas.. definite carbon and dirt in lots of areas. Definitely NOT sanded with sandpaper.. lots of roughness to sides and fore end..
https://imgur.com/gallery/VsjIbSQ
https://imgur.com/gallery/BSmRv7Y
A couple of links to more stock pics. I tried the talcum method and couldn’t lift any old WaA’s in the wrist or sides of the stock. Don’t think they were ever there..looks like a “ring” dent in the area and nothing conclusive. Raw white laminate in action and would bet behind butt plate..can see in cracks between stock.
Heel of stock is rough down stock including across serial and in other areas.. if stock was cleaned was only done in certain areas.. definite carbon and dirt in lots of areas. Definitely NOT sanded with sandpaper.. lots of roughness to sides and fore end..
https://imgur.com/gallery/VsjIbSQ
https://imgur.com/gallery/BSmRv7Y
Tiger 2 Tank
Senior Member
I’m seeing good mill marks in the wood. Maybe it is just the photos and lighting. I was having a hard time with photos myself, but I am seeing the advantages of using “filtered” sunlight. My photos are a heck of a lot better. Not as good as I would like them to be, but better.
These are for sure promising:
The “M” or “W” in the sling eyelet is always cool to see. I’ve seen several BLM rifles with that mark.
These are for sure promising:
The “M” or “W” in the sling eyelet is always cool to see. I’ve seen several BLM rifles with that mark.
