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Thread: K43 AC45 dual code

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls6man View Post
    Maybe I can catch up with Brian and let him get it “in hand”
    I hope you do, and maybe having the Rifle in hand he will be able to determine it has not been sanded, and proofs never applied ! Regardless it’s a very cool Rifle !

  2. #32
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    Thank you.. I do need to find another mid 1944 G43 however as I’m more a 1943-44 collector

  3. #33
    Senior Member Tiger 2 Tank's Avatar
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    I can help with your serial number question if I understand what you are asking for.

    K.43 ac45 f blocks are as follows:

    These rifles are known: K.43 qve45 #3954f, then the next reported and known rifle is K.43 ac45 #4589f (the start). Last known (or rather reported) is K.43 ac45 #7620f. This rifle is also mentioned or shown in “Hitler’s Garands”, page 131. Last known rifle is K.43 qve45 #8981f. K.43 ac45 rifles are mixed in with K.43 qve45’s, but the ac45’s seem to be concentrated heavily in a couple of numeric block areas-but still some qve45’s in with them.

    I own the third highest qve45 reported or known (at this time anyway) K.43 qve45 #8713f. Yours should be finalized with two e/214 stamps on the side of the stock since BLM was doing these rifles at this point. Unless your rifle was never final proofed. Mine is also wrist stamped proofed with a (BLM proof-not Walther) “dimple” wrist stamp and a e/214 wrist proof. This was a proof that shows the stock and action were mated together. My late K.43 ac45 a block is not side stock final proofed, but is keel and wrist proofed. I know for a fact it has never been sanded as there is still mill marks in the wood where those stamps are normally-which sanding and or steel wool will kill the mill marks.

    Mill marks, along with stamps and “wood chatter” are what we look for to really verify whether wood has been wooled down and or sanded. Mill marks are not totally always there, so just because a rifle doesn’t have mill marks doesn’t mean it has been sanded or anything. So, that alone cannot be a determining factor. I looked at your photos more closely. Here’s what I see: I see your serial number being too dull and the letter block almost non-existant. I do see evidence in a few areas where the mill marks and wood chatter are present, but the mill marks are almost all gone but present especially near the butt stock plate. I “think” what happened was some careful steel wooling has occurred; but carefully to the serial number area, heavier in the non-vital areas and none applied to near the end of the stock.

    I am going to use Brian Kowalski’s K.43 ac45 #5326f, which is shown in our picture section, as an example of stock mill marks to look for. His rifle seems to be the “go to” on this because the photos show it so well and it’s kind of close to your rifle. Notice the final two e/214 stamps in with the stock mill marks.

    6999BA6B-D690-4B9C-99B1-5E39DDFC23D4.jpg

    Please don’t think I am downing your rifle. It’s a really rare rifle and absolutely cooler with the un-numbered scope mount. Those are also hard to find. Just hoping to clear up some confusion that may exist on the stock.
    Last edited by Tiger 2 Tank; 12-01-2019 at 08:11 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger 2 Tank View Post
    I can help with your serial number question if I understand what you are asking for.

    K.43 ac45 f blocks are as follows:

    These rifles are known: K.43 qve45 #3954f, then the next reported and known rifle is K.43 ac45 #4589f (the start). Last known (or rather reported) is K.43 ac45 #7620f. This rifle is also mentioned or shown in “Hitler’s Garands”, page 131. Last known rifle is K.43 qve45 #8981f. K.43 ac45 rifles are mixed in with K.43 qve45’s, but the ac45’s seem to be concentrated heavily in a couple of numeric block areas-but still some qve45’s in with them.

    I own the third highest qve45 reported or known (at this time anyway) K.43 qve45 #8713f. Yours should be finalized with two e/214 stamps on the side of the stock since BLM was doing these rifles at this point. Unless your rifle was never final proofed. Mine is also wrist stamped proofed with a (BLM proof-not Walther) “dimple” wrist stamp and a e/214 wrist proof. This was a proof that shows the stock and action were mated together. My late K.43 ac45 a block is not side stock final proofed, but is keel and wrist proofed. I know for a fact it has never been sanded as there is still mill marks in the wood where those stamps are normally-which sanding and or steel wool will kill the mill marks.

    Mill marks, along with stamps and “wood chatter” are what we look for to really verify whether wood has been wooled down and or sanded. Mill marks are not totally always there, so just because a rifle doesn’t have mill marks doesn’t mean it has been sanded or anything. So, that alone cannot be a determining factor. I looked at your photos more closely. Here’s what I see: I see your serial number being too dull and the letter block almost non-existant. I do see evidence in a few areas where the mill marks and wood chatter are present, but the mill marks are almost all gone but present especially near the butt stock plate. I “think” what happened was some careful steel wooling has occurred; but carefully to the serial number area, heavier in the non-vital areas and none applied to near the end of the stock.

    I am going to use Brian Kowalski’s K.43 ac45 #5326f, which is shown in our picture section, as an example of stock mill marks to look for. His rifle seems to be the “go to” on this because the photos show it so well and it’s kind of close to your rifle. Notice the final two e/214 stamps in with the stock mill marks.

    6999BA6B-D690-4B9C-99B1-5E39DDFC23D4.jpg

    Please don’t think I am downing your rifle. It’s a really rare rifle and absolutely cooler with the un-numbered scope mount. Those are also hard to find. Just hoping to clear up some confusion that may exist on the stock.


    I'm sorry...you lost me...so you are saying because this rifle has few milling marks, the serial is lightly stamped, and there are no WaA214's in the wrist or right side...it has been sanded...heavily in the area of the WaA's but not in the serial area?

    I don't agree with those statements and here is why..

    You referenced a late AC45 A block you own, which has a lot of chatter and no WaA's. If that is correct it is because of 1 of 4 things..

    1) The stock had them and it has been heavily sanded
    2) The stock is not original to the rifle
    3) Your rifle was never accepted and sat at Walther until liberated
    4) The WaA's were simply left off...your assumption and I'm sure correct

    However I used to own AC45 9303 A, which was stone mint (actually a dual guide rifle), had a lot of chatter and had 2 pristine WaA359's present on the left side. I've also owned other AC45's in other blocks which had the WaA's applied...so either your rifle is one of the top 2 scenarios...or it is indeed number 3 or 4...# 3 is highly unlikely as Walther was moving parts and rifles to other plants, so an "A" block rifle would not have sat...So scenario 4 is most likely..and if it is most likely for you....it can be likely here.

    BTW...I'm looking for AC45 9303 A if anyone has it...would love it back...

    Now let's consider what the "F" block rifles are...AC produced parts which were assembled at BLM. We know the receivers are AC, but what else? In this case the stock is a Walther produced piece or made for Walther. We know this due to the flat bottom fore grip and the position of the stock recoil lug. I believe a BLM stock will fit a late AC receiver but not the other way around. Since the recoil lug is the dead give away it is an AC stock. We know on AC finished stocks there is often significant chatter present in AC45 rifles...but not seen on QVE 45 produced rifles.

    Brian K has QVE45 2605 which I used to own and sold him in 2000 or 2001. It is un-sanded and doesn't have significant chatter on the stock. I'm sure he can post pics of it here...We know when observing BLM produced stocks the amount of stock finishing is greater than AC rifles. BLM adhered longer to serializing the rifle components as well as stock finishing. So it stands to reason if they received a stock from AC they would have finished it to their standards...not AC. Hence minimal chatter.

    BTW Brian I'd love to get QVE45 2506 back....

    Since we know the stock serial was applied by BLM and it matches general location (more on that later), font and size...we can assume it is the original stock to the rifle serial....hence an AC supplied receiver and stock (plus other components) finished at BLM to their standards.

    Now to the WaA's....We are to assume your AC45 "A" block is original but devoid of WaA's...we know there are other rifles...both AC and QVE which are original un-sanded and are devoid of them...We also know WaA's are commonly expected though and rifles in all blocks had them if accepted...Yet this rifle is being critiqued for a lack of them, and you are saying since your later rifle has them....this one should as well...but your AC45 "A" block doesn't...but that is ok...that is illogical.

    When evaluating a rifle it is best done with it in your hands..when looking at this rifle one doesn't see any ghosting of a WaA on either side or the wrist. In order to completely remove a stamp you'd have to alter the stock sufficiently to not leave a "ghost." You can run a straight edge throughout the stock and there aren't gap associated with sanding. Also when sanding (steel wool cuts laminate as well) there will be visible cutting of the fibres. Using steel wool on laminate or walnut produces a smooth feeling to the wood as it cuts the rough natural texture off.

    There are neither visible sanding or a smooth texture to areas not normally contacted by hands. The area across the serial is rough, the stock flats, the area in front of the magazine (rearward of normal grasping), the areas around the recoil lug, etc.

    If what you are saying were true....someone sanded the stock WaA's off and was careful around the serial number....there would be a "ghost" impression of the acceptance WaA's, sanding noticeable to a straight edge, and a smoothness to the stock. Please show me where the WaA's were...I will be happy to photo what you need.

    We know from HG (pg 350) another "F" block (4832 F) rifle didn't have wrist proofing...same as this rifle. We also know there is a great range of reported to be un-sanded original 1945 rifles which exhibit varying degrees of WaA's, so why is it not conceivable this is the case here. Especially when using pictures and not having it "in hand"

    The issue I believe is the serial number depth...which candidly should be best seen in person. When I look at HG pg 166..I see a late QVE 45 with what appears to be a similar depth serial strike to this rifle. When I look at the pics of Brian's rifle...the one pic of the serial candidly shows a very light strike, which is centered in the stock. The pic of the right side WaA's shows a VERY light strike...so why is it conceivable a light strike didn't happen here....and what is to say it is even light? Can Brain post pics of QVE45 2506...not heavily struck from memory.

    I'm guessing the "6" is concerning as the left side is not noticeable....but the gang stamp was not centered on the stock and was moved left, so the "6" would be partially on the rounded edge of the heel of the stock. This also can be seen with the "4" being heavy...due to pressure and angle of stamp relative to material...Compare Brian's stamp to this one and the off center stamp is readily obvious...this coupled with other factors...force of strike, pressure to the gang stamp and angle of stamp...can and will alter the appearance of original stamps....Don't believe it...look at US cartouches and engine pads on muscle cars..varying degrees of original stamps ranging from faint to a 800lb gorilla.

    When viewing the serial with the naked eye...it is readily readable...the numerals appear uniform in depth where expected based on stamp position, curvature of the stock, etc. If the stock was hit with steel wool it was extremely light and candidly I doubt it was.

    At this point I'm tired of discussing the rifle...as unless you have it in your hands...it is conjecture at best.

    https://imgur.com/gallery/eRoC3Vd
    Last edited by ls6man; 12-01-2019 at 11:58 PM.

  5. #35
    Senior Member armenjs's Avatar
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    Hello OP. I am looking at original post and I can't tell what post #3 is talking about, maybe the album was edited, and further on thread I can see the stock pic/album. To be honest, I didn't think it was sanded but examining the pictures further, it looks like some areas have been touched and not others. for example rear and buttplate areas are not touched. I don't think it ever had acceptance proof. I know the feeling... your are proud at your achievement just saying, please don't take it as criticism. You have a nice rare bird leave it at that. The mount is super early and fine. hey cmon you see all the drama with supper early and supper late items... It's like BF you don't know where to look LOL! btw send info for Claus.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Model's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Kowalski View Post
    What Ryan and Mrfarb said.

    From the additional pics, lever looks like a reproduction in my opinion. These tended to break and/or get easily stripped.
    +1

    From what I can see in the pictures stock has been sanded/cleaned. That being said I like the Gun, It all comes down to what the Op paid for it.
    Hell I would like to have it in my collection for the right price.
    HDH.

  7. #37
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    Late Dual Code K43...……………….. "Bitchen"

  8. #38
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    Just because was asked and some have thought any stock work was cleaning only

    A couple of links to more stock pics. I tried the talcum method and couldn’t lift any old WaA’s in the wrist or sides of the stock. Don’t think they were ever there..looks like a “ring” dent in the area and nothing conclusive. Raw white laminate in action and would bet behind butt plate..can see in cracks between stock.

    Heel of stock is rough down stock including across serial and in other areas.. if stock was cleaned was only done in certain areas.. definite carbon and dirt in lots of areas. Definitely NOT sanded with sandpaper.. lots of roughness to sides and fore end..


    https://imgur.com/gallery/VsjIbSQ

    https://imgur.com/gallery/BSmRv7Y

  9. #39
    Senior Member Tiger 2 Tank's Avatar
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    I’m seeing good mill marks in the wood. Maybe it is just the photos and lighting. I was having a hard time with photos myself, but I am seeing the advantages of using “filtered” sunlight. My photos are a heck of a lot better. Not as good as I would like them to be, but better.

    These are for sure promising:

    A443DD8C-F5D4-41C7-978A-608A2E5DDB4B.jpg8C4525D0-872B-46A0-92C8-2ACF32160A08.jpgE6C559F6-D688-4E10-A5EB-6B94E06C49A5.jpg

    The “M” or “W” in the sling eyelet is always cool to see. I’ve seen several BLM rifles with that mark.

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