Third Party Press

World Wars and Collective Guilt

Absolut

Senior Member
Actually, serial number 1 is for sale right now.
Yeah, that rifle was “liberated“ by an American GI in 1945. Another term for stolen from a museum. They even use the quotation marks in their description to put the term stolen into different words.

Anyway, it is listed for sale at $ 100,000 by Joe Salter.
 
Yeah, that rifle was “liberated“ by an American GI in 1945. Another term for stolen from a museum. They even use the quotation marks in their description to put the term stolen into different words.

Anyway, it is listed for sale at $ 100,000 by Joe Salter.


One would think that the actual legal owner is the museum. I would love to think that is how a court would rule. I wonder why the custody has never been challenged, or has it? How is something, anything really, stolen out of a museum considered legitimately owned by the thief?


KJ
 
One would think that the actual legal owner is the museum. I would love to think that is how a court would rule. I wonder why the custody has never been challenged, or has it? How is something, anything really, stolen out of a museum considered legitimately owned by the thief?


KJ

Victors write the books, to the victors go the spoils as they say...my guess is they generally see examples such as this (American Victors looting a military museum while the war was still going on, or just over) as a tough shite situation for Germany and the Museum...

Although if brought to court in this day and age, it would be interesting to see how they'd rule.

I personally think the way the military has come down on the whole souvenir/war trophy thing since Desert Storm (Where good ol' Stormin' Norman showed his anti-gun shitbird side) is complete BS.
 
Well, it is not uncommon for valuable paintings to be repatriated. Even from allied hands. Were I the museum, I would give it a shot.


KJ
 
We allow chit chat here...and I am sure there is not much known about the gun in question, so don't know how much anyone can offer...
 
Victors write the books, to the victors go the spoils as they say...my guess is they generally see examples such as this (American Victors looting a military museum while the war was still going on, or just over) as a tough shite situation for Germany and the Museum...

Although if brought to court in this day and age, it would be interesting to see how they'd rule.

I personally think the way the military has come down on the whole souvenir/war trophy thing since Desert Storm (Where good ol' Stormin' Norman showed his anti-gun shitbird side) is complete BS.

Kind of hard to have any sympathy for the plight of a German museum "robbed" during wartime given the Nazi's track record of looting treasures across Europe. Pot, meet kettle.
 
I don’t care if it was in a museum, it was a German weapon of war, therefore subject to seizure. It’s not a cultural object or a piece of art.

Steve
 
I remember hearing about that story years ago. Yeah they paid him but he was asking $65,000 for it and the Polish government paid $25,000 for it not to mention all the legal fees and court fees that he had to deal with. Oh and they wrote him a nice letter saying thank you for letting us display this in our Museum.
 
I don’t care if it was in a museum, it was a German weapon of war, therefore subject to seizure. It’s not a cultural object or a piece of art.

Steve


That’s pretty much ignorant and BS. It was a hunting rifle previously owned by the Kaiser and in a museum. Ergo, historical and cultural value.

KJ
 
Kind of hard to have any sympathy for the plight of a German museum "robbed" during wartime given the Nazi's track record of looting treasures across Europe. Pot, meet kettle.


Completely, and absolutely irrelevant. Two wrongs do not make a right.


KJ
 
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?38905-World-Wars-and-Collective-Guilt

Completely, and absolutely irrelevant. Two wrongs do not make a right.


KJ

Yeah, I remember my mom saying that when I was a kid, but it doesn't change my mind about this.
 
I'm very sorry for having started this discussion on the second rifle, but I don't feel sorry for what I had said. It is not a rifle one would find ammo for, so it surely was in a museum where it was stolen from. The fortuante detail for the current owner is the fact that it is most possibly unknown who previously owned it, as well as it is Germany and I'd doubt they would dare to ask back something that had beloned to a govermental museum.

To finally get back to the OP rifle: I really enjoyed looking at your pictures and would love to see some more details of your rifle. It is really absolutely unique in so many aspects. A dovetailed barrel with a holding pin is something which I have never heard or seen before. Does the bolt lock directly in the barrel, or is there a receiver portion where it locks?
 
That’s pretty much ignorant and BS. It was a hunting rifle previously owned by the Kaiser and in a museum. Ergo, historical and cultural value.

KJ

I was referring to the Schlegelmilch. But considering the slaughter, human suffering and misery the Germans inflicted on the world, I’m not too worked up about them losing the Kaiser’s baubles either.

Steve
 
Your're thanking the one that began the off-topic banter... and as far as off-topic banter goes it is allowed here, so is chit-chat as well as dissent. Censoring and infraking are reserved for excessive profanity and threatening behavior or intentional disruption of threads.

The original poster has no say in the progress of a thread, if it goes off-topic then that is the way it will go, - if you do not approve go to Gunboards for information, - and good luck with that, they will provide a safe space for you, but little else.

Thank you for trying....
 
War Booty Reparations

I have been absent due to health issues, but even though this is a little off-topic the sole guilt of Germany in either World War is no more legitimate than with her adversaries… Hitler might have been the lead protagonist but there was plenty of guilt to go around, and Hitler's invasion of Poland was only possible due to Stalin's complicity. If you read period academic literature, news journals, you will discover that Poland and Austria were despotic regimes, the Czechs hardy a sympathetic victim (strong resistance from minority groups, even the Slovaks had segments of society that sought independence - Hitler didn't invent the problems with the Czechs, all of her neighbors were seeking her dismemberment). Secondarily, the actions of a government hardy reflect the guilt of an entire society, Hitler never won a free election and came to power under nearly impossible circumstances, national socialism didn't reflect most Germans, certainly no more than Obama or Trump represent America, (there is a big difference between "America" as a concept or ideal and the United States as a geographical construct - and our government certainly doesn't reflect the 320million people within its jurisdiction, I for one disagree with every action they take...)

In short Germany was probably the least guilty in World War One (far more "democratic" and tolerant than any of her opponents, especially Russia - the Germans possessed one of the strongest socialist parties in Europe at the time, all the Progressive ideals came to Germany first, all the nanny state ideas you see around us today were tested in Germany first..); World War Two has its origins to decisions made in 1919, the "victims" of WWII (France and Belgium in particular sowed the seeds of 1940 in 1919-1920, their governments had to know Germany would return to its dominate position in Central Europe, they would be seeking vengeance, under such circumstances they had two choice be generous/reasonable in the peace 1919-1926 or seek to support the new German republic under the moderate socialist (SPD), they did neither and positioned Germany into chaos that laid the foundation of a war of vengeance..)

No country (government) in either war was solely guilty, both sides were equally guilty, all you need do is read the literature of the period to see views about Germany vs her adversaries, American academics roundly condemned both sides, quite rightly in my view, - many thought England's eagerness was due to issues over Ireland and German rivalry in industrial progress. the French over Alcase-Lorraine (which was most ethnically German); the Germans equally sought to distract from the growing threat from its socialist adversaries.

My views of the situation isn't colored by personal heritage, I have very little German heritage, mostly Irish and Scot, - all governments are led by greedy little men, bureaucracies full of corrupt men, none legitimately represent their populations or its nations best interests, war benefits none of the common men that truly represent the nation.

As for seizing private property during or the aftermath of war, it is never legitimate, at least after WWI the Americans and English sought to honor ethics on this matter, WWII was different of course, it was a war built upon propaganda (lies) that all Germans and Japanese were monsters, but let us remind ourselves of the truth that there is no legitimacy to the concept of collective guilt. Such things should be left to politicians where ethics and morality play no part... their motto of the ends justify the means is all one needs to remember about their character.


As a result of WW2, some countries of the world such as Poland lost millions of people and 80 years later still have not fully regained their independence. Their national treasures were looted and some of it is still being hidden in “The Mother Land” by innocent Germans. It is estimated that 68 to 73 million innocent non Germans residing in over 60 countries lost their lives in WW2. Even teeth were yanked out of their jaws for the gold fillings to enrich Germany’s coffers, yet you are worried about the loss of a few museum pieces belonging to the innocent German people. A little war booty does not even start to repay the world for its losses.

My view also are not colored by personal heritage as, I am certain I have more German heritage than you.
 
As a result of WW2, some countries of the world such as Poland lost millions of people and 80 years later still have not fully regained their independence. Their national treasures were looted and some of it is still being hidden in “The Mother Land” by innocent Germans. It is estimated that 68 to 73 million innocent non Germans residing in over 60 countries lost their lives in WW2. Even teeth were yanked out of their jaws for the gold fillings to enrich Germany’s coffers, yet you are worried about the loss of a few museum pieces belonging to the innocent German people. A little war booty does not even start to repay the world for its losses.

My view also are not colored by personal heritage as, I am certain I have more German heritage than you.

When you cannot get that Germany was the Fatherland correct, not the Motherland (Russia) my days of taking you seriously certainly have come to a middle...

There was also a small group that took part, called the Japanese...
 
Poland in 1939 had a hostile and ruthless government, they were anti-Semitic and ruthless with it's minority populations, the Germans in Poland were systematically robbed of their private property and minorities in eastern Poland had it worse - including savage pogroms. Ask relativity peaceful Lithuanians how they got along with Poland? Or the Czechs, who had a lengthy dispute over territory (the Poles and Hungarians were as eager over Czechoslovakian dismemberment as the Germans - the Germans in Czechoslovakia were the second largest ethnic group, also some of the wealthiest)

Are all Czechs or Poles guilty of their governments past? Or only Germans... These small and weak (economically & industrially) countries (governments) who murdered Jews and Ukrainians represent a small portion of these countries, I do not heap collective guilt on Poles, Czechs or Hungarians because of their governments actions. I suggest you read more on the history of Poland in the early 20th Century, this was probably the least deserving country to begin a general war over (same goes for Serbia in WWI) both were pretext, which distracted the populations in the west from the real motives, which were even less worthy of the lives the wars caused.

What national treasures (of Poland) are you referring too? Poland was a rather poor country that had been occupied by A-H, Russia and German for generations? I have never read of the "great raid" of Polish museums, - I suppose the Soviets didn't participate in you fantastical comparison? The biggest looter in WWI was the USSR...

What of our (US, England & France) ally, the Soviet Union? Or only the vast crimes of the national socialist regime count? The war began with a agreement to divide Poland between the Germany-USSR, something that had been OK to the English and French for hundreds of years (occupation of Poland). The Stalin-Hitler agreement was far more than a division of a relativity unimportant state (Poland), rather the economic concessions Stalin agreed to made it possible for Germany to fight a general war. Vast raw materials and food were sent on credit. Had Stalin not agreed and performed this, Germany would have been out of gas (literally) within a few months of active war. Hitler didn't have enough fuel, munitions or raw materials to conduct a lengthy full scale war in the west. Stalin made that happen. Which he promptly took advantage of by gobbling up the Baltic States and parts of Rumania. Where is the outrage of these crimes, these invasions (all occurring during Hitlers invasion of France) seem lost to history, - is this because the vast crimes of Stalin only murdered Slavs and Russians? In 1937 alone Stalin arrested 300,000 Russians, the vast majority died after a short torture signed confession... Add Stalins the terror famine in Ukraine that killed millions, or his subjection of 120 million peasants and farmers, where hundreds of thousands, probably millions, were killed. But again these aren't Belgians of Frenchmen, not even Danes or Dutch, and everyone knows that simple Russians and Slavs are just numbers, an abstraction, and only killing Jews and westerners really matter in history books. The simple fact is that before 1942 Hitler was an amateur at mass murder. Of course Mao made Stalin look like an amateur too, but stupid kids wear Mao portrait on tee shirts today... but again what are tens of millions Chinese lives?

Lastly, I do not care about looting museums as much as looting and terrorizing individuals... lastly what is to be repaid, are sons and daughters guilty of their father's crime? Do we execute the whole family of a convicted murder? Where does your generational guilt end? Great grandchildren? Maybe we kill all Germans and ethnic Germans to be sure we get them all? Or is that too far because you are ethnically German?

*** How does that calculation regarding 68-73 million over 60 countries made? I don't have a map of Europe handy, but in 1939 I doubt 60 countries existed in the operational area of Europe, off the top of my head maybe 30 or so if you include many countries that were free from conflict (Swiss, Spain, Portuguese, Turkey, Swedes for example) I suppose you are including Japan in your calculation? Well that is a whole nother subject.

To mollify those that are sucking their thumbs over off-topic banter, - which is allowed on the forums I moderate - I will move these threads to a new post...

As a result of WW2, some countries of the world such as Poland lost millions of people and 80 years later still have not fully regained their independence. Their national treasures were looted and some of it is still being hidden in “The Mother Land” by innocent Germans. It is estimated that 68 to 73 million innocent non Germans residing in over 60 countries lost their lives in WW2. Even teeth were yanked out of their jaws for the gold fillings to enrich Germany’s coffers, yet you are worried about the loss of a few museum pieces belonging to the innocent German people. A little war booty does not even start to repay the world for its losses.

My view also are not colored by personal heritage as, I am certain I have more German heritage than you.
 

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