Third Party Press

Another PRE98 wannabe - more dealer opportunists - S/147G rises again

I looked up the original auction and found it here: https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-M...-Weimar-Eagle-S-147-G/lotInformation/50917922 . Bidder won it at $ 6,200.00. Adding the 23% BP from Proxibid he paid $ 7,626.00 without shipping. Given the shipping costs and gunbroker fees I'd say it would cost him $ 8,000 - he would therefore make at least a $ 2,000 premium when it successfully sells on gunbroker.

Might be worth mentioning, it looks like he at least made a good job in cleaning the rifle. It seems he also oiled the stock. Not sure how long this took him, but I guess not enough hours to justify $ 2,000 premium. On the other hand, a total of 181 pictures on gunbroker also takes some time, despite of the single line description.
 
We live on a continuum.... and experience a continuum.
  • Think about K98 knowledge,,, it's a continuum from weak to strong.
  • Think about what you have recently bought ... not just WW2 items.... items range from nearly free to over paying. I buy stuff at a discount grocery where items can be 10% of a mainstream grocery's price for the identical item.
  • Dealer behavior & knowledge is on a continuum... About 18 months ago at auction, I watched a Virginia dealer buy multiple rifles, and flip onto GB.... and his 33/40 lost money. All of the K98s that he bought were bad too (not sure how they did). As we chatted in person at the auction... it was obvious he had middle of the road knowledge. When I cautiously mentioned the 98's had issues, his reply was along the lines that, on balance, he generally makes a profit putting on GB.
  • Pre98-style profiteering is not the norm, but an outlier, IMO
  • Everything gets flipped... cars, houses, designer purses, guns.... it's the world in which we leave. Of course the level of the profit is along a continuum too (and the ATF/FFL requirements is another matter outside of this discussion)
 
Might be worth mentioning, it looks like he at least made a good job in cleaning the rifle. It seems he also oiled the stock. Not sure how long this took him, but I guess not enough hours to justify $ 2,000 premium. On the other hand, a total of 181 pictures on gunbroker also takes some time, despite of the single line description.

Let's say he gets $10K for it. After Gunbroker takes their cut, he's looking at around a 20 percent margin. It's a lot of money to tie up, but a decent profit margin and probably better than most dealers make on new guns.
 
Well but a dealer doesn't have to invest hours of work in a new rifle .. if he had to, he would rather send it back to the manufacturer. Seller of this gun did do work on the rifle. While $ 2000 for cleaning and oiling a rifle sounds too high, it still is work one would have to pay for if one doesn't do it himself.

The seller did risk quite a lot in buying it at a high price and hoping for such a profit for simply cleaning and picturing the rifle. Not sure if he will be successful with that.
 
I've been watching this guy for years and what irks me about him is that he buys 90% -95% matching or complete G41 and G43 and then parts them out and sells them piecemeal on eBay at crazy prices. The stripped down bare bones receivers usually end up on Gunporker. He has a feel for how much desperate buyers are willing to pay for a part much needed for completing their rifles and his prices are accordingly. I've seen him peddling retros as originals with a huge price tag. The kicker was a Walther G41 bayonet lug stamped WaA135, offered at $600 BIN with a picture of it attached to a G41 stock, for "provenance". It sold.

Anyhow, we already discussed him here:
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?32943-K-43-check-this-one-out
 
The problem imho is does he have a license? AFAIK as neither his name, number, nor address show up in the FFL database. If he's buying and selling guns for a profit the ATF requires he have a license. If he does not, he is in violation. If you want to be a big boy business, go get the license, the insurance, etc. Report him to the ATF. The more people that report him the greater the chance they will act.


There is an anonymous tip form here: https://www.atf.gov/contact/atf-tips

Provide the Gun Broker username, the examples of the transactions at proxibid and the new auctions at GunBroker and your concerns. They will have the rest of the info they need.
 
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The problem imho is does he have a license? AFAIK as neither his name, number, nor address show up in the FFL database. If he's buying and selling guns for a profit the ATF requires he have a license. If he does not, he is in violation. If you want to be a big boy business, go get the license, the insurance, etc. Report him to the ATF. The more people that report him the greater the chance they will act.

There is an anonymous tip form here: https://www.atf.gov/contact/atf-tips

Provide the Gun Broker username, the examples of the transactions at proxibid and the new auctions at GunBroker and your concerns. They will have the rest of the info they need.

That's hilarious. The legal big boys ask big bucks and of course, they have overhead and taxes to go with that license. If someone wants big boy prices without playing by the rules, then that could be a problem. They are essentially competing with us, then marking up and jamming us, but without the costs associated with that. Essentially, getting the benefits of being a collector, but functioning as a profiteer. That ain't right.
 
If he is required by ATF to have a license, and he does not, oh sweet baby Jesus that would be delicious.


KJ
 
If we are talking about the same person, I think he goes by wunderwaffe1945 on ebay. His prices are way out of line to everyone else. I have noticed that he just keeps listing them and waits for someone to come along that will pay it. I believe in free market but holy hell he tries to gouge everyone.
 
I am suprised that gunbroker doesn't take issue with the constant relists at insane prices with hundreds of photos. Has to be costing them a bit of money in bandwidth. I seem to remember them sending an email saying they were gonna be battling that type of seller. I hate logging in every day and seeing the same rifles posted over and over again.
 
Making less than $2k on $7,800 outlay with additional work involved isn't a great markup in most industries. $16k that is a crazy markup.

Either way though these prices will ultimately hurt the market. Especially if it is flippers buying and each time they sell the price is increases 25.

As for flipping firearms consistently without a license that does give him an unfair advantage; it is akin to the unlicensed and uninsured contractor. Ultimately though those who hire such a contractor, just like those who buy from such an individual, do deserve a percentage of the blame.

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This thread is interesting.

There seems to be a bit of a concern as to rising cost of our hobby.

Well, we have no one to blame except ourselves. It's the collecting community that has driven the research end of our hobby and subsequently produced outstanding publications on the subject of axis era firearms. The recent K-98 series of books are an excellent example.
That's the double edged sword. The more sophisticated we become the more attractive we become towards investors.

50 years ago....lever action Winchesters and Marlins would have been excellent investments. They have realized enormous returns on investments for smart and savvy collectors. Same goes for Lugers or Single Action Army Colt's.


Over the past few decades they have been gravitating into Third Reich militaria and firearms. And with good reason. They are sound investments. Think about the guy making several hundred thousand a year. He's got the second home...the boat...the sports car...and he's bored with handing over lump sums to stock brokers. Firearms are a good investment. Especially Third Reich era firearms. Books get published....forums inform 24/7....
It isn't hard for a smart financial adviser, who's client likes firearms, to steer them in our direction.
Investing in correct, desirable variations of 98ks right now is a better investment than lever action Winchesters. The return on investment, in say 20-30 years, would most likely be better.

Which brings us to the fellow listing this rifle at an exorbitant BIN price. Is it over the top? Of course it is but it's the trend. They are going to keep creeping in that direction...especially rare variants.
What does it mean for the hobby?
Well, past history is all we have to go by. There aren't many young Single Action Army Colt's collectors out there nor lever action Winchester rifle collectors. It's going to be the same way for Axis firearms.
The young collectors I run across are after Mosins, Arisakas, Carcanos, old surplus imports etc. They aren't as picky about things like importation stamps and Russian Captured, Frankenstein 98k's either. Keep an eye on the Japanese rifles. They are starting to move up. Younger collectors can still afford them because excellent examples can still be found under a $1k but it won't be for long. Correct, run of the mill 98ks are north of $1500 these days and that alienates the majority of folks. It takes time to save up that kind of dough. Some have the patience to save up and strike on a nice find but it's too slow for most young collectors so they move on to different areas of more affordable interest.

We can't have our cake and eat it too. The cat's out of the bag as far as information and desirable variants. The evolution of collector interest and investment potential has steered in our direction as well. This storm, if you will, means that the pieces we enjoy are going to continue to be more expensive and elusive. There's no going back.


As for this dealer with the "G" date listing. I know nothing of him or his business. If he doesn't have an FFl then he obviously has made arrangements to transfer through one. What he asks for his property is his business. I just know that my a$$ isn't shelling out over 10k for a 98k......not anytime soon anyway:)
 
There are a lot of people right now with cash, looking for places to put it. I collect High Powers too. About 6 months ago there was a collection of nice GP.35s that got put on Gunbonker. One of them I "needed". I would have gotten it at a great price, but there was one guy who was bidding on all of them, ran them all way up, won them all, paid for them all. I was able to figure out who he was. A hedge fund guy involved in moving money around. Not really a firearm guy or a collector. However, this was at a time when the big firearm news was that FN was finally ceasing production of the GP.35. There are probably more than a few guys like that. Those are probably the guys to whom Pre-98 sells. They don't have the time or interest to do the research, learn and invest in a hobby, but they want cool trinkets that will go up in value.

The K98k hobby is increasing in value due to the successes of bringing integrity to the hobby over the last 20 years. Yes, there are fakes, but yes, we bust those. If you want to be an ignoramus and blow money, you are going to get burned in any hobby. The correct answers are here, free, and easy. Some of the best reference books came out of this site with Bruce and Mike. I collect German helmets too and I can tell you, over the last 20 years some of those guys, some of their "bigwigs" have done significant damage to the hobby. One look no further than the "Great Champagne Rune Hoax" and how the people originally trying to call out these SS decals as painted fakes were attacked and silenced. At its current trajectory that hobby may become one of old gray beards who will die with their lid piles or take huge losses on them. Those "exotic freshies" being trafficked on WAF for $3000+ 10 years ago can't be given away now.
 
Any financial advisor that advises someone to invest in milsurp firearms or any collectible should have their license revoked. Milsurp Firearms are for collecting not investing. They are not liquid, there is no regulated exchange. If you "invested" in civil war firearms 20 years ago you lost your shirt.

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Any financial advisor that advises someone to invest in milsurp firearms or any collectible should have their license revoked. Milsurp Firearms are for collecting not investing. They are not liquid, there is no regulated exchange. If you "invested" in civil war firearms 20 years ago you lost your shirt.

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I’m not talking about low end investments. And a100 years ago Civil War items were a good investment. Right now it’s WWII. You buy right and sell right.
Correct, high end Axis militaria is a sound investment. You do realize that there are folks out here that have $10- $100k a month or more to toss around? Money that they don’t need to keep trapped in their businesses because cash flow isn’t an issue?
They aren’t interested in a regulated exchange when it comes to investments like this.

Some of us are idealistic and look at our hobby, not through the prism of money, but through a love of history and nostalgia...a fascination with firearms design and engineering.
I know I do anyway.
But any area of interest that involves money will attract the those who want to capitalize. It’s a fact of life.
 
There are a lot of people right now with cash, looking for places to put it. I collect High Powers too. About 6 months ago there was a collection of nice GP.35s that got put on Gunbonker. One of them I "needed". I would have gotten it at a great price, but there was one guy who was bidding on all of them, ran them all way up, won them all, paid for them all. I was able to figure out who he was. A hedge fund guy involved in moving money around. Not really a firearm guy or a collector. However, this was at a time when the big firearm news was that FN was finally ceasing production of the GP.35. There are probably more than a few guys like that. Those are probably the guys to whom Pre-98 sells. They don't have the time or interest to do the research, learn and invest in a hobby, but they want cool trinkets that will go up in value.

The K98k hobby is increasing in value due to the successes of bringing integrity to the hobby over the last 20 years. Yes, there are fakes, but yes, we bust those. If you want to be an ignoramus and blow money, you are going to get burned in any hobby. The correct answers are here, free, and easy. Some of the best reference books came out of this site with Bruce and Mike. I collect German helmets too and I can tell you, over the last 20 years some of those guys, some of their "bigwigs" have done significant damage to the hobby. One look no further than the "Great Champagne Rune Hoax" and how the people originally trying to call out these SS decals as painted fakes were attacked and silenced. At its current trajectory that hobby may become one of old gray beards who will die with their lid piles or take huge losses on them. Those "exotic freshies" being trafficked on WAF for $3000+ 10 years ago can't be given away now.


Hey Ham-
You reminded me of an auction I was at years ago. It was a random estate auction with a variety of different sporting guns . But there was a nice early e/613 trigger guard HP...early one...in the auction and this guy kept bidding against me. We were the only two bidding on it. He bid me up to over 2k...which was a lot of money for one back then..and I backed off and let him have it.
After the auction he came over and asked why I bid it up so much and I asked him the same question. He said because you were bidding on it...”I figured it was worth something.”
He wasn’t even an axis pistol collector either.
I’m still shaking my head.
 
I’m not talking about low end investments. And a100 years ago Civil War items were a good investment. Right now it’s WWII. You buy right and sell right.
Correct, high end Axis militaria is a sound investment. You do realize that there are folks out here that have $10- $100k a month or more to toss around? Money that they don’t need to keep trapped in their businesses because cash flow isn’t an issue?
They aren’t interested in a regulated exchange when it comes to investments like this.

Some of us are idealistic and look at our hobby, not through the prism of money, but through a love of history and nostalgia...a fascination with firearms design and engineering.
I know I do anyway.
But any area of interest that involves money will attract the those who want to capitalize. It’s a fact of life.
100 years ago they buying civil war firearms would have been great, if you sold at the peak. If you bought civil war firearms 100 years and still had them today you didn't keep up with inflation. Guys spending $100k arent doing so to invest as much as it is a status symbol. Also they are buying Winchesters, Drillings, and Doubles. Guys who spend that kind of money still look down on Milsurps.

Anyone investing now at the peak I guarantee will get burned. The interest has faded. Proof of this for me is the number of bidders per item on GunBroker and how dead the forums are. 2 years ago every forum was busy. Now sometimes you are lucky if you get a questioned answered. Yes the high end and rare will hold value because there are always a select few willing to pay. The $3-5k K98k that should be $1,500-$2,500 I don't think will hold it's value. I have said for a couple years Milsurp prices will drop. Higher end K98k are currently bucking the trend and that is likely because of the research and work done here. However there just aren't enough buyers at current prices. Most milsurps have dropped and are dropping.

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Lets be real here, a S/147/K will never truly be worth $16k...period.

Now maybe some dumbass with more money than brains may buy it at that...but that is an anomaly...
 

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