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Thread: Research Project: Firearms of Imperial German colonial forces.

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    Senior Member MichaelWC's Avatar
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    Post Research Project: Firearms of Imperial German colonial forces.

    Firearm research of the Imperial German colonial forces. "Schutztruppe, Landespolizei and Polizeitruppe."
    The German colonies used firearms from both ends of the technological scale. Often they were issued obsolete stocks of firearms yet at other times were given the very latest trial models as they were more likely to get a chance to put them to the test in action. At times of shortage all manner of civilian hunting weapons, captured rifles or even hand made firearms were used in the German colonies. If you have any interest in the matter or want to learn more. I would definitely visit http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk

    Bayonets and unit disc markings
    Southwest Africa:
    KS=Kaiserliche Schutztruppe
    K.S. (no) = DSWA
    L.P. (no.) = Landespolizei DSWA
    K.G.P. (no.)=Kaiserliches Gouvernement Polizei and seem to be used in 1905-07.
    Kamerun:
    Sch. K.(no.)= Kamerun
    S.K. (no.)= Kamerun
    P.T.K. (no.) = Polizei Trupp Kamerun
    East Africa:
    Sch. D.O.A (no.) = Deutsch Ost-Afrika
    Togo:
    P.T. (no.) = Polizei Togo (no Schutztruppe in Togo, just police)
    Other Colonial markings:
    F.K. = Feld Kompagnie (14 in DOA, 9 in DSWA, 12 in Kamerun)
    Sch. A. (no.) = Schutzpolizei Anhalt-Scheinwerfer-Abteilung. there were 2 in DSWA.
    Sch. PI. (no.)= Schießplatz training unit.
    Seabataillon
    I. S.B.R. (no.)= I. Seebataillon) was based at Kiel
    Il. S.B.R. (no.)= II. Seebataillon) at Wilhelmshaven.
    Ill. S.B.R. (no.)= III. Seebataillon) was formed in Tsingtao in China in 1898 and permanently based there, with small staff base at Cuxhaven.
    Ostasiatische Expeditionscorps or Imperial East Asian expedition corp
    (no.)O.R.(no.)= East Asian expedition corp

    Mauser Jägerbüchse 1871:
    1877/Danzig/4329/Sch.K.2107(cancelled illegible) (1909 or later)
    1875/ÖWG/4084E/Sch.D.O.A.1587(1909 or later)
    ?/ÖWG/4294/10.D.4.97 This rifle has been sports a shorter carbine style of barrel. It is also mark "ORTSPolizeibehörde Warmbad 160" Southwest African Police stamp.
    1875/ÖWG/?/Sch.D.O.A.
    1875/ÖWG/840c/Sch.D.O.A.430
    *NOTE:Beginning in 1909 Spandau arsenal altered numbers of JB71s forcolonialservice by adding an ejector. JB71s issued tocolonialunits before 1909 had no ejector.

    Kar98/ Kar98A/Kar98a:
    1904/Erfurt/6800/L256 (This carbine was used in German SouthWest Africa and is marked Luderitzbucht 256 stamp on the stock.)
    1904/Erfurt/?/K.G.P.46.
    (note: Kaiserliches Gouvernement Polizei and seem to be used in 1905-07.)
    1904/Erfurt/2137/F.P.1.32 (note: F.P.1.32 Fahrpark-Kolonne Nr.1 waffe Nr. 32
    1904/Erfurt/6913/K.G.P.47.
    1904/Erfurt/7141/K.G.P.202.
    1912/Danzig/?/SCH.D.O.A.1080
    1912/Erfurt/?/Sch.K.835

    Colonial Gewehr 1898 used by the Kaiserliche Schutztruppe.
    1899/WMO/6735/K.S.10228.S (few details-unknown if stock is original to the receiver)

    Spandau 1900
    1900/Spandau/?/K.S. This rifle is also marked. L.P.638)
    Gew 98 was found in South African auction house "ClassicArms" Catalog as item number F030) auction of 8/22/2020
    1900/Spandau/9450c/K.S.1623.S in a SA collection.
    1900/Spandau/7478b (KCN report - SA collection, stated "KS")
    1900/Spandau/4977c/K.S.9043.S This rifle is also marked 2.F.R.7.81
    1900/Spandau/7467i /K.S.9043 JN
    1900/Spandau/?/K.S.10279
    1900/Spandau/?/K.S.11194(This rifle is also marked. L.P.424)
    1900/Spandau/5750c/K.S.9671
    1900/Spandau/?/K.S. (Gew 98 was found in South African auction house "ClassicArms" Catalog as item number F030) auction of 3/23/2019

    Spandau 1901
    1901/Spandau/5115/K.S.
    1901/Spandau/5417/K.S.1378
    1901/Spandau/7028/K.S.1138
    1901/Spandau/168/K.S.9788.S (eGun pictures poor)
    1901/Spandau/1473 (report - stated KS)
    1901/Spandau/2346/ K.S.11260
    1901/Spandau/2692/K.S.792.S
    1901/Spandau/4141/K.S. (KCN report - SA collection)
    1901/Spandau/7083/KS (CB report)
    1901/Spandau /7372/K.S.4349.S (SA collection)
    1901/Spandau/5117a /K.S. 2539.S (report - SA collection)
    1901/Spandau/5922a/KS (KCN report - SA collection)
    1901/Spandau/?/K.S.2177.S (serial unknown
    1901/Spandau/5703/K.S.
    1901/Spandau/2538/K.S.
    1901/Spandau/?/K.S.(Gew 98 was found in South African auction house "ClassicArms" Catalog as item number F179) auction of 4/27/2019
    1901/Spandau/?/K.S. (Gew 98 was found in South African auction house "ClassicArms" Catalog as item number F058) auction of 3/24/2018
    1901/Spandau/?/K.S. (Gew 98 was found in South African auction house "ClassicArms" Catalog as item number F059) auction of 3/24/2018
    1901/Spandau/?/K.S.(Gew 98 was found in South African auction house "ClassicArms" Catalog as item number F127) auction of 11/26/2016
    1901/Spandau/?/K.S.(Gew 98 was found in South African auction house "ClassicArms" Catalog as item number F12) auction of 4/21/2012
    1901/Spandau/?/K.S.(Gew 98 was found in South African auction house "ClassicArms" Catalog as item number F4) auction of 11/26/2011

    Spandau 1903
    1903/Spandau/1210a/? (KCN report - SA collection)

    Erfurt 1902
    1902/Erfurt/?/K.S.4540
    1902/Erfurt/9925e/K.S.9381
    1902/Erfurt/?/K.S.
    1902/Erfurt/?/K.S.(Gew 98 was found in South African auction house "ClassicArms" Catalog as item number F015) auction of 8/6/2016

    Firearm of the Landespolizei
    Mauser Jägerbüchse 1871:
    1880/Danzig/2343/LP (this rifle is marked "ORTSPolizeibehörde Bethanien 359" This would indicate that it was used by a Schutztruppe police unit at Bethanien in SouthWest Africa, prior to the formation of the Landespolizei in 1905. 359 would be the weapon issue number.
    ?/ÖWG/4294/10.D.4.97 This rifle has been sports a shorter carbine style of barrel. It is also mark "ORTSPolizeibehörde Warmbad 160" Southwest African Police stamp.

    Kar98/ Kar98A/Kar98a of the Landespolizei:
    1904/Erfurt/6800/L256 (This carbine was used in German SouthWest Africa and is marked Luderitzbucht 256 stamp on the stock.)
    1904/Erfurt/?/K.G.P.46.
    (note: Kaiserliches Gouvernement Polizei and seem to be used in 1905-07.)
    1904/Erfurt/2137/F.P.1.32 (note: F.P.1.32 Fahrpark-Kolonne Nr.1 waffe Nr. 32
    1904/Erfurt/6913/K.G.P.47.
    1904/Erfurt/7141/K.G.P.202.

    Colonial Gew 98 of the Landespolizei:
    1900/Spandau/9301/Sch.A.11 (note Sch.A could be Schutzpolizei Anhalt-Scheinwerfer-Abteilung. there were 2 in DSWA.)
    1900/Spandau/?/L.P.424 (This rifle is also marked. K.S.11194)
    1900/Spandau/4262c/L.P.200
    1900/Spandau/6174c/L.P.561
    1900/Spandau/7538/L.P.xxx (suffix unknown-numbers x'd out)
    1900/Spandau/?/L.P.638 This rifle is also marked. KS.)

    East Asian Expeditionary Corps:
    1899/ Erfurt/5390/4.O.R.9.188
    1900/ Spandau/7357a/ 1.O.R.4.116
    1900/Spandau/ 8074a/ 1.O.J.R.2.55
    1900/Spandau/7357/1.O.R.4.116
    1st East Asian Infantry Regt, 4th Coy, weapon number 116

    Seabataillon:
    1899/Erfurt/5205/ III.S.B.2.199
    1913/Spandau/9741c/ III.S.B.R.124
    1913/Spandau/9060c/ III.S.B.R.321

    Handguns of the Schutztruppe and Police:
    Mauser C96 (Broom handle) pistol
    ?/Mauser Oberndorf/?/1052 Keetmanshoop
    (Orts Polizei Behörde' or local police authority, and 'Keetmanshoop' in German South West Africa.)

    Roth-Sauer model 1907 Pistol:
    ?/Roth-Sauer/ C 61/LP 237
    ?/Roth-Sauer/C 161/LP 72
    ?/ Roth-Sauer/C 205/LP 106
    ?/ Roth-Sauer/C 212/LP 123
    ?/ Roth-Sauer/C 273/LP 184
    ?/ Roth-Sauer/C 377/LP 161
    ?/Roth-Sauer/C 378/LP 228
    ?/Roth-Sauer/C 408/LP 55
    ?/Roth-Sauer/C 419/LP 92
    ?/Roth-Sauer/C 559/LP 109
    ?/Roth-Sauer/C 706/LP 209
    ?/Roth-Sauer/C 737/LP 179

    1883 der Revolver or Reichsrevolver:
    1894/Erfurt/1953/1.O.R.4.3 (This pistol three sets of unit markings. Two are from East Asian service- "1.O.R.4.3" (4th East Asian Infantry Regiment, 4th Company) and "O.A.F.2.18" (2nd Battery, East Asian Foot Artillery). The third is "M.G.A.1.30" for the 1st Machine Gun Abteilung of the Prussian Army.)
    ?/Erfurt/272d/OA1 MK1 (This pistol has two sets of unit markings. The first is "OA1 MK1" for "Ostasiatisches Field-Artillerie Regiment Batterie 1 Muntionskolonne 1." (East Asian Artillery Regiment, 1st Battery, 1st Munitions Supply Column). The second marking after it is a later issue marking "143R.9.5.." for the 9th Company of the 143rd Lower Alsatian Infantry Regiment ("4. Unter-Elsässisches Infanterie-Regiment. Nr.143") which served on the Western Front during the First World War.)
    ?/ V.C.S*C.C.H. Suhl/26L/K.S. 211

    Note:Many rifles on my list have Question marks for their serial numbers. That is because I found them in South African auction house or they belong to collectors. So I could not acquire the serial number. Thank you.
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    Last edited by MichaelWC; 09-19-2020 at 08:59 PM.

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    I can only add another Spandau 1900 with L.P. ??? marking.
    The rifle was on display at a gun show decades ago. No further details. Sorry.

    Do not forget the other colonies.
    The shown bayonet frog made it home from the police forces Cameroon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amberg View Post
    I can only add another Spandau 1900 with L.P. ??? marking.
    The rifle was on display at a gun show decades ago. No further details. Sorry.

    Do not forget the other colonies.
    The shown bayonet frog made it home from the police forces Cameroon.
    Thank you Amberg. Anything and everything can help.

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    Default COLONIAL SERVICE RIFLES - Craig Brown 2003

    COLONIAL SERVICE RIFLES

    If anything, more obscure than the Radfahrers.

    All I know of are Spandau and date from 1900 to 1903. They have all the characteristics of a conventional early Gew 98: flat-sided bayonet stud, first form firing pin, early style Lange rear sight registering on 200; it has been asserted that the reason the sights were not changed was to permit snap shooting at close quarters in the bush. The bolts are bent down in a curve (like the Kar 98AZ/Kar 98a) not at an angle (like the Radfahrer, Kar 98b and Kar 98k). and there is a clearance cut for the bolt knob which is full round. They are converted to the S Patrone and have an S stamped on the barrel behind the rear sight and sometimes an S stamped on the marking disc (in addition to whatever else there may be on the marking disc.)
    The marking disc is usually stamped K.S. (Kaiserliches Schutztruppe = Imperial Defense Force) followed by a number. I Have disassembled three of these rifles. In one case the disc was right-side-up as found and marked as noted. In the other two cases the disc had been reversed and the side showing was marked K.S. (no.) The original disc markings were struck out; in one case, the markings are visible and indicate issue to a Feldregiment (of which more below) and in the other case the initial letters were illegible but the balance looked like a standard Kompagnie/Waffennummer sequence. One rifle had the original bolt SN ground off and a new (matching) number added; another has an originally matched bolt.

    These rifles seem to have been issued exclusively to the Schutztruppe DSWA; PERHAPS to the Schutztruppe DOA and Kamerun; not to Togo, which had only a police unit. The KS DSWA was a mounted outfit with one camel company; they fought as mounted infantry; i.e., moved on their horses/camels but fought dismounted, like infantry. The KS DSWA was an exclusively European; no native units but there was an auxiliary (supply) outfit comprised of Bastards (mixed native/European "tribe") who supported them.

    The Germans had a lot of trouble keeping the lid on in DSWA. They didn't impose controls on firearms for the locals until very late in the game and their colonial policy was far from enlightened. In 1904 the Herero started a rising which the Germans didn't succeed in putting down until 1907. They did so by virtually exterminating the Hereros. When the uprising broke out the KS was caught flat-footed out of the immediate area and had to redeploy; their numbers were not large and they were rapidly reinforced by Navy personnel on station and then extensively reinforced by units sent out from Germany. There is an large body of literature on the Herero uprising extensively illustrated; in not one case that I know of are Colonial G98s shown in the hands of units during the rising - there are Kar 71s, G71/84s, G88s, Kar 98s, and straight-bolt standard G98s, but no bent-bolt Colonial G98s. Prior to (?) and during the uprising the Schutztruppe DSWA was organised into Field Regiments.

    Fast forward to 1914:

    The South Africans drive on DSWA. Some die-hard Boers try to join the Schutztruppe (which already has a Boer Kompagnie) but they are cut off by the loyalist Boers under Smuts et. al. The CO of the KS DSWA puts up a good fight but sees his mission as confined to the defence of his colony only and is finally boxed in and surrenders in 1915. The South Africans take the KS DSWA POW, amnesty most of them and send them home - with their rifles and ammo so they can keep the lid on the locals. Smuts gets a lot of flak for this.
    The South Africans discover something in the order of 10,000 rifles in store in DSWA. Why? To arm the Boers who the Germans expected to join en masse in case of war. They haul the loot back to Johannesburg, where some of it is photographed in huge heaps. Some of the rifles go home with the South Africans as trophies,; others are buried (some got dug up in the late 1980s). The interesting thing is that contemporary photos of this period both of German and South African origin show classic Colonial G98s, i.e., with bent bolts.
    So sometime between 1907 and 1914 the Colonials appear.

    Based on the extremely limited number of Colonials I have examined it looks to me (from the unit markings) that they started out as straight-bolt jobs, perhaps some already in the colony and others brought out from Germany with the reinforcements and were then modified to bent bolt configuration. Unfortunately the marking regs for the Schutztruppe have never been found so we don't know when the K.S. (no.) came into effect which might give us some sort of clue as to when this was done.

    I suspect that the bolts were bent and the stocks inletted locally. Some support for this notion is found in Schnee (ed.), Deutsches Kolonial-Lexikon, Leipzig, 1920, Bd.1, S. 197: topic: "Armament: .....Since for special constructions (sic) the Army administration did not come into question their supply resulted through cooperation with private industries." This according to Major K. Zimmerman, KS Kamerun, the author responsible for sections in the encyclopedia relating to military affairs.

    2004 is the centennial of the Herero uprising and there is considerable academic activity in Germany and elsewhere planned in that year in the way of conferences, studies, etc. since in the last five years or so some German historians have postulated that the extermination of the Hereros is forerunner of Nazi genocide in the World War II era. We may see some studies of the KS DSWA in the appropriate specialised press which may shed more light on their rifles.

    The Colonial rifle in Ball is mine; it is 100% matched.

    NB:An article on the Colonial rifle was published in DWJ some years ago and an English translation of it was then published elsewhere; I will add the citations to these articles to this post tomorrow.
    WaPruf2

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    Default RADFAHRERS DURING WWI - Notes of KS

    RADFAHRERS DURING WWI

    Did some further checking. There was a large EXPANSION of Radfahrer companies during WWI and some were grouped into brigades. Altho initially companies attached to Jäger and Schützen battalions many of the new ones were independent; some were numbered, some named for their C.O. They were frequently used as mobile reserve units.

    HILFSKORN (AUXILIARY FRONT SIGHT)

    There are so many references to these in the literature I don't think there is much point in listing them. The earliest reference to them I have seen yet is in Schwarte, Die Technik im Weltkrieg, München, 1920. For photos of the real thing see: Luc Guillou, Mauser fusils et carabines militaires, La Tour du Pin, 1992, p. 64.
    COLONIAL REAR SIGHTS: CLOSE SHHOOTING IN BUSH

    The source for this notion, such as it is, is an article by Hans Fromming, Die Bewaffnung der Kaiserlichen Schutztruppe von Südwest-Afrika, DWJ, H.8., Nr.8, Aug. 1966 S.42-47. A badly translated version of this same article appears in: International Arms Review 2, Oakland, N.J., n.d., pp.208-211.

    This article has to be used with great caution. The author illustrates a Colonial (hereafter in my posts indicated as a Kol. Gew.) which has a K98AZ bolt in it; he provides no specific description so we don't know if the bolt matches or not; he illustrates a Stempelplatte marked S. and K.S.712. with the implication it is on the illustrated rifle but he does not say specifically that it is from that rifle...

    My translation of his remarks with reference to the rear sight is:

    "The [rear] sight was the previously [i.e., prior to the S Patrone] normal Lange sight, where the lowest setting was at the 200m position. [so far, no problem-ed.]. The sight curve was changed [sic!] from the usual 400m setting of the Gewehr 98 [set up] for the S- cartridge to 200m so that with [this] setting close-in targets could be more quickly acquired and engaged."

    As I read this, he is saying that the the rifle was initially fitted with an S-Patrone sight but had that removed and replaced with a M88 Patrone sight. I have grave doubts of this, and would be interested to know what the date is on the rifle he is basing his description on, but he does not provide that information...

    LOCAL MODIFICATIONS (bolt? rear sight?)

    To quote our friend Zimmermann, this time in Schnee, op.cit., Bd. 3, S. 651:

    "Weapons of the Police and Schutztruppen: 1. Handweapons. The equipment of the Police and Schutztruppen with hand firearms is proportional to the weaponry and military skills of our opponents in the particular defence areas ( Schutzgebiet; think: colonies-ed.). - In German Southwest Africa, whose inhabitants have modern breechloading weapons and are recognised sharpshooters, the Schutztruppe ([both] officers and enlisted men) and the Landespolizei carry army rifles modified for local conditions known as Schutztruppengewehr."

    This, of course, does not specify what the modifications are or by whom, where or when they were modified...

    FURTHER QUESTIONS

    We are in the same position with the Kol. Gew. that we are with the Radfahrers: we lack sufficient specimens accurately and completely described to reach any firm conclusions.
    Is there a Kol. Gew. with K98AZ-type bolt original to it?

    Are there any Kol. Gew. with dates AFTER 1903? If so, what kind of sights do they have?

    S PATRONE IN THE COLONIES

    Again Zimmermann, op.cit., loc. cit.:

    "In German East Africa the European [troops] are armed with our modern magazine rifles for S-ammunition...the [Askaris] and Police are in process of being gradually rearmed with S- [ammunition capable] modern weapons....In Kamerun the Europeans and coloreds [sic] of the Schutztruppe and Police [are equipped] with the Kar 98 [sic; version not specified - ed.] (Army model for S-ammunition) [which implies Kar 98AZ -ed.] except for the two companies in the Muslim area which are already equipped with Schutztruppengewehren 98 [
    Kol. Gew. - ed.] but for which gradual replacement with Karabiner 98s is proposed. ... The Police in German New Guinea have in part modern repeaters for S ammunition, in part older weapons which are to be replaced in the forseeable future."

    To this I add that there are specimens of Kar 98As (Not Kar 98a) known with unit marks P.T. (no.) = Polizeitruppe Togo; I don't have any information on whether they are in the Patrone M88 or S Patrone.

    AMMUNITION

    This is a summary based on Zimmermann's article in Schnee, op.cit., Bd. 2, S. 601:
    Ammunition supplied in watertight (soldered shut) cases; artillery ammo loaded and ready to shoot in the case (but not fused). Ammo packed in loads suitable for carriers: 25-30 kg. In the case of 11mm ammo this meant crates of about 500 rnds. and for 8mm 675 rnds; MG and artillery ammo carried on wagons (usually ox-drawn) or horses. I add that crates of unopened 8mm still survived in South Africa as late as the middle 1980s and may still be there.

    SCHUTZTRUPPE TACTICS

    Schutztruppe officers were VERY carefully selected from volunteers from the Army, Navy and the occasional Cadet schools (the Colonial service was not thought glamorous enough for the nobility to bother with). The EMs and NCOs (both active and reserve) were almost invariably long-term residents or locally born natives of their colony; in DSWA there was a bunch of Boers who had emigrated from South Africa to get away from the new regime who were also members of the Schutztruppe. These people were used to the climate, had survived the local diseases, knew the terrain, the wildlfe, the locals, their customs, language and their fighting techniques. The KSDSWA was, as noted previously, a mounted outfit which fought as infantry; highly mobile and flexible; they had some light artillery and MGs. They were widely scattered in small posts all around the colony and operated with considerable independence. When the Herero uprising broke out there were not enough of them to suppress it and so reinforcements were sent out from the homeland. The reinforcements were commanded by officers trained for the prevailing style of European warfare as were their accompanying troops. None of them were used to the climate, the diseases, or operating over long distances without an extensive support echelon. The regular officers of course virtually ignored just about any advice they got from the Schutztruppe; that is certainly one reason it took the Germans three years to put down the Hereros. The Hereros were classic highly motivated and well-led guerilla fighters. They could (with the assistance of the Schutztruppe) be found; they could rarely be fixed and fought, and when they were they were invariably defeated. Most of the time they melted off into the bush and the German regulars were too cumbersome to chase them... The famous Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck, later commander of the KSDOA (which during WWI stayed in the field and surrendered a week after the Armistice only on orders from Berlin) learned his trade fighting the Hereros. The Germans finally succeeded in putting down the Hereros by taking no prisoners, destroying their crops, villages and cattle, poisoning their wells and driving them into the Kalahari desert and keeping them there until most of them died.

    WaPruf2 6.11.03

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    Default Craig Brown - More Notes

    last updated at Jun 12, 2003 09:50 a.m.

    REAR SIGHTS
    On the three Kol. Gew. I have actually inspected all had matched sights.
    The point about a special version of the rear sight which looks like the original Lange for the M88 cartridge but is really designed for the S cartridge is a good one and has occurred to me as well. The problem I have in determining the situation is that I have no really good large-scale profile views of an original M88 sight and I have no access to an actual specimen. One might expect the mill cuts for the elevator to perhaps be different and/or the depth of the sighting v-notch to be different.

    MORE ON TACTICS

    On the few occasions the Germans could fix large numbers of the Hereros AND concentrate their troops timely AND surround the Hereros before they dispersed they had to go in and "winkle them out", supported by MG and artillery fires if available. The Hereros were masters of cover, concealment, surprise, evasion and escape.
    WaPruf2

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    Default KS observations

    1899 WMO 6735 K.S.10228 (few details-unknown if stock is original to the receiver)

    1900 Spandau 7538 L.P.xxx (suffix unknown-numbers x'd out)
    1900 Spandau 7478 b (KCN report - SA collection, stated "KS")
    1900 Spandau 4262 c L.P.200
    1900 Spandau 4977 c K.S.9043 / S - 2.F.R.7.81
    1900 Spandau 5750 c K.S.9671
    1900 Spandau 6174 c L.P.561
    1900 Spandau 7467 i K.S.9043 JN


    1901 Spandau 168 K.S. 9788 / S (eGun pictures poor)
    1901 Spandau 1473 (report - stated KS)
    1901 Spandau 2346 K.S.11260
    1901 Spandau 2692 K.S.792 S
    1901 Spandau 4141 K.S. (KCN report - SA collection)
    1901 Spandau 7083 KS (CB report)
    1901 Spandau 7372 K.S.4349 / S (SA collection)
    1901 Spandau 5117 a K.S. 2539 / S (report - SA collection)
    1901 Spandau 5922 a KS (KCN report - SA collection)

    1903 Spandau 1210 a (KCN report - SA collection)

    1902 Erfurt 1133 K.S.4540 / S (limited pictures)
    1902 Erfurt 9925 e K.S.9381

    1900 Spandau K.S.10279 (Bob Ball, serial unknown)
    1901 Spandau K.S.2177 S (serial unknown)
    Last edited by Loewe; 01-03-2020 at 05:32 PM.

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    Default

    I thought it appropriate to add Craig Brown's commentary regarding this subject, this was all in one long Gunboards thread that covered these two enigmatic variations, who Craig once said were among the most mysterious variations of the Imperial era (along with sniper variations)

    He told me to gather up these three variations (KS, Bicyclist & a specific sniper variation - he was specific in type but I do not remember off-hand) and do a display was one of the things he wanted to accomplish.

    I also posted my trends observations, only a couple are in anyway thorough examinations. Most are little more than reports or a series of 4-6 pictures. I saw none that showed the BC and only one that showed the matching bolt's acceptance. I did not go through all 1900-1903 Spandau's (non-KS) looking for these features to compare to Michael's example, but i can say with some certainty that there will be very few that we can make direct comparisons with... I am unsure whether a legitimate comparison can be made of the barrel code, very few early BC's are recorded and a number that are were re-barrels during the war.
    Last edited by Loewe; 01-04-2020 at 01:17 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member MichaelWC's Avatar
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    Great information Paul. It was very enjoyable to read all of that. I have two pictures for you Paul. There not much but one is a picture of rifles and the other ones are description there from the auction where I won my rifle in South Africa. I actually tried to win both but I failed. The one I failed to get was made by Erfurt and dared 1902.
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    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    Thanks Michael! Very interesting, probably another Erfurt out there! I doubt the WMO example, probably a stock mating case. People are shy with these rifles, hard to get good pictures to really establish parameters.

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