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Thread: Luftwaffe depot repair? Luger

  1. #1
    No War Eagles For You! mrfarb's Avatar
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    Default Luftwaffe depot repair? Luger

    In my quest to waste as much money as possible buying guns collecting genres dislike, I made a deal with a local dealer on this Luger. I got a good feeling for it in hand, and it came with a Luftwaffe inspected holster.

    I'm a bit confused, as Luger collectors keep referring to these guns as "Krieghoff" related. Am I wrong in that the E/2 inspection is a Luftwaffe depot stamp?? Or is this a Luftwaffe acceptance? To me it's a depot stamp (the holster marking). I've found several other Luft 9 marked Lugers, one that confirms to me that the barrel replacement is actually related to the Luft rework, I suspect a mid-30's rework for the growing Luftwaffe myself. Has pitting, but it was 30 years old before it went to the Luftwaffe, and started out as a commercial 1908 meant for private purchase. Some serials are from the commercial build, some are from rework 1, and others from what I suspect may be rework 2, as all strawed parts have been blued. Anyway, pics:


    Also, another very similar pistol:

    https://pre98.com/shop/very-rare-kri...e-9-proofed-2/
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  2. #2
    Beavis Moderator Intern mdarnell19's Avatar
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    That is a cool pistol. Goes great with a Luft depot built K98k. Hope you learn more about it.

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    "Ach du lieber!" Bigdibbs88's Avatar
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    I agree with you I think it’s a Luft depot, not HK.
    Cool pistol!

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    Senior Member mauser1908's Avatar
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    That's a really neat one, I think you're right. I think the serialization alone rules out the HK theory. It's really neat that it retains it's original commercial S/N under the side-plate and had an additional number applied, is this the case for the take down? If it is the original take down, could you see the barrel replacement and re-blue being done some time after early 1937? The hold open would have had to be added at some point around this time too.

  5. #5
    No War Eagles For You! mrfarb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mauser1908 View Post
    That's a really neat one, I think you're right. I think the serialization alone rules out the HK theory. It's really neat that it retains it's original commercial S/N under the side-plate and had an additional number applied, is this the case for the take down? If it is the original take down, could you see the barrel replacement and re-blue being done some time after early 1937? The hold open would have had to be added at some point around this time too.
    I haven't really looked into what time frame this could be from, but mine appears to have been reworked more than 1 time. The takedown is not the commercial one as it lacks the hidden serial to match, also all of the straw parts are blued. I suspect these were originally assembled/reworked at the beginning of the new Luftwaffe in 35-37 timeframe? As the force expanded I think Luger production was prioritized for the Army, so the Luftwaffe came up with a workaround. There seems to be a huge variety of base pistols used, but almost all have the barrel replacement and Crown N. A few more I found today just googling, not the consistent attribution to "Kreighoff", a misunderstanding of depot reworks/builds, something that occurs with Kü Lugers too:

    https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/...onnection.html

    https://www.auctionzip.com/auction-l...UTO_B4C4072A67
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    Baby Face RyanE's Avatar
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    A few thoughts

    It appears to be some sort of rework, but it looks like a commercial rework, not Luftwaffe or at least not directly. So its an odd pistol, but its odd enough that I don't think it's fake.

    The big oddity is the E/9 itself. These stamps are production stamps, I don't think these would be related to a Luft depot at all. I suppose it's possible this was done so early the Luftwaffe's version of the HWA (Luftwaffenamt?) was inspecting depot work. Seems unlikely to me, though. Why would the LZA be commercially proofing their work?

    My best guess: the Luftwaffe purchased these already reworked commercial pistols from someone in the area covered by E/9, and the Luftwaffe inspectors inspected and accepted them on delivery. I doubt HK had anything to do with it. As I noted in an earlier thread, it seems the Luftwaffe was apparently looking for Lugers wherever they could find them, going so far as to request deliveries of 10k Artillery Lugers from the HWA, so this oddball rework certainly fits.

    As to the holster, I am not an expert, but I am not sure I like it. The E/2 is again a production acceptance, almost certainly the Suhl area, and IMO not depot related. This style of stamp is seen on HK Lugers as well as Luftwaffe ammo. Otto Graf (bcb) is in Leipzig, not Suhl, and being Army accepted makes me very suspicious. The E/2 holsters usually have the full Eagle style of acceptance also. That said, I did find another one just like yours, but the Luger guys judged it a fake. Not that I trust them, of course.

    We don't know enough about the Luftwaffe as far as rifles/pistols/etc. go, so someone needs to go diving through the Bundesarchive. Maybe write a book or something.e2_zpse22ef7f1.jpge2inside_zpsc99e1f3d.jpge2stamp_zps65a3a715.jpg

    Edit: On closer inspection, I think this is the same holster. Crappy pics made the condition look worse.

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    No War Eagles For You! mrfarb's Avatar
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    I agree that the holster is not typical (and because of that is suspect), but I dismiss the idea that just because it's Army marked it can't be Luftwaffe. I also agree that the holster will never be accepted as legitimate unless others come out.

    But I'm here to tell you that other Army holsters shown before have all been decried as fake or suspect, which keeps a lot of them from being shown on forums as the dogma is set. When respected and knowledgeable people tell you to shitcan it, you listen, and probably a good idea. But, we've seen many cases of things that don't make sense authenticated at a later date, so I'm going to keep the holster and keep looking. Anyway, Krieghoff Lugers are so rampant with fakes that anything Krieghoff related is tainted, or even remotely related.

    One other point to add - the Luftwaffe increased the number of Lugers in 1941 substantially with the Kü marked Lugers, they added a lot of holsters at that time. Not saying this is hard evidence, but circumstantial evidence. If a lot of these fall in 41 date holsters it could help explain it.

    Case in point, what could be a legitimate holster being relegated to a humped up holster:

    https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...+eagle+holster
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    Baby Face RyanE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfarb View Post
    I agree that the holster is not typical (and because of that is suspect), but I dismiss the idea that just because it's Army marked it can't be Luftwaffe.
    I don't put much stock in anything Luger collectors think, I just don't know why it would be inspected by the LWA (or whatever it was called) in Suhl if it was already WaA approved.

  9. #9
    No War Eagles For You! mrfarb's Avatar
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    I respect the work of many Luger collectors, but it seems many stopped researching in earnest about 1988. I agree that its odd to be Luftwaffe inspected since it was already Heereswaffenamt inspected, but we both seem to agree that nobody knows much about how the Luftwaffe acceptance system worked or even how it was organized. We make assumptions based on observations, and even assign offices/inspections to areas based on those observations, but we really have no idea what they meant at the time.

    There seems to be plenty of information in the Bundesarchiv about this subject, but it would take someone who understands German to decipher it quick enough to be useful. Meaning, it's almost not worth the effort to dig things out and translate unless you are passionate about it. A disinterested German speaker could probably get to the nut pretty quickly with a little effort (famous last words).

    For example - one of the places I thought could be the potential assembly point of the LZA4 rifles is LZA Kölleda, North of Erfurt, about 1.5 hr from Suhl. It was a large facility that survived most of the war untouched, and in the IV district. Could the archives hold the truth? I think if you could show that this LZA also repaired small arms in addition to being the big Dornier bomber repair facility you might have something.


    https://www.deutsche-digitale-biblio...XQPWKQYS4H6G7T
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  10. #10
    Senior Member gew98's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanE View Post
    I don't put much stock in anything Luger collectors think, I just don't know why it would be inspected by the LWA (or whatever it was called) in Suhl if it was already WaA approved.
    Why would legit SS rifles have Heer markings ?. And yet they do. The germans were particularly adept at salvage of material. With the P08 production phased out in 1942 and the largess of the oberndorf P08 parts on hand given to the Luftwaffe many Luft proof guns were assembled from that . What's to say damaged small arms were not funneled to them by the Heer as was done to the SS. And or picked up by them from field salvage. The Herman G division most likely had a lot of Heer proofed small arms and for sure luft armorers had their hands full in Italy for example.
    D卐M☭CRATz can bite my Azz

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