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Deaths Head Luger 08

Absolut

Senior Member
I couldn't stick to my own rules and pass on the items that I don't collect. Somehow my brain persuaded me that a Deaths Head marked 08 would be a great companion to Deaths Head marked SS (sniper) rifles, so I ended up buying it. Prior to the purchase I researched a lot and compared with the ones I could find. The ones that seemed legit were all pretty uniform, they have had the Deaths Head with the lazy S atop. As a result this one appeared legit to me, but would be keen what you here can tell me since this is absolutely not my field of collection.

Aside of the magazine the pistol is matching numbers (well, one part inside the frame has different numbers plus a WWI German proof, I don't know if they simply didn't bother to scrub the serial on this part?), it seems that some of the numbers are arsenal applied, plus the original year date and the manufacturer markings were scrubbed and the pistol then reblued. Post that it got a commercial Crown N proof which is stamped four times on this pistol. I couldn't find any date with this proof, not sure what this would indicate?
 

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I'm no expert either, but it looks interesting. Pardon my random observations- Looks like it may have been originally made as a commercial piece. The lack of a notch on the barrel extension makes me think DWM made it, who also made commercial ones (I thought Erfurt's were all destined for the military). If commercial, the side plate would have the appropriate number tucked into the bottom edge almost out of sight. Not refitted for a Police sear. I agree with the refinishing, may have been a long time ago, and the barrel may have been replaced at that time (assuming it is 9mm and not 7.63). Inside, I assume you refer to the hold-back bar that is Imperial era, who knows when that could have been put in it, not all of these are in the same shape they were captured in. Crown N in the East German era would look different and would have other marks associated (if redone for their polizei or military). Hence I think it was a rebuilt one after WW1. Nice puzzle for me to learn on!
 
I am far from an expert on these, and there is a lot that is still not known about them as to if they are a WWI mark, a FreiKorps Mark, or something Nazi but I believe all the examples accepted as original are late war date Imperials, 1917-18 marked guns, I’ve not seen a commercial rework that falls in this group, FWIW.

Nick
 
I've looked up that part, according to an online exploded view the proper English term is "Hold-Open Latch with Spring". I do have a 1920 DWM Commercial P.08 as well. The firing proof on the particular featured P.08 is different from the one on the 1920 DWM Commercial (different in size, location of the proofs, font and proportions). Also the barrel on my commercial 08 is fully serialized (including suffix) to match the pistol while on this one aside of the firing proof and the small letter 3 it doesn't have any markings at all, plus the serial doesn't have a suffix at all.

This pistol is 9mm caliber. While you suggest the barrel has been replaced - the firing proof stamp on this pistols barrel is identical to the firing proof on all other parts, so it dates from the same period. Couldn't this be a hint for it being original, SS replacing the maybe worn barrel, scrub the DWM and year marking, match the serial without suffix on the receiver and then re-proofing the pistol? It would basically be the same as with the Gew98 to K98k conversions where they replaced the barrel, stamped their Deaths Head proof, issued a new serial without suffix and then got everything commercially proofed.

Edit: While it does not have any connection to this forum, if you want I could also do a thread on the DWM and post the pictures of it if you want to see it.
 
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I paid a price which isn't higher than the price for a normal P.08. Worst case I'll loose maybe 200 (and this only if I decide to sell and buyers having a bad day too), so not much to worry about.
 
have you posted this pistol on Jan Stills luger forum? Very knowledgable folks on the P08 there
 
I had considered posting it there. First felt really unsure what section I should post it in (to which period this one would belong?), then decided to search for Deaths Head. The results given are a bit annoying - basically the Luger collectors deny even the possibility that there could had been such a pistol and they only separate between obvious fakes and items which are not obvious fakes. They neglect that there are K98k rifles with SS stamps and consider these not original too, because to them it would not make sense for the SS to "do" weapons themselves. As a result to this I decided I would first collect as much information and data as possible prior to posting on the Luger section.
 
Welcome to my world Georg. Welcome to my world. Lol.


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..there are K98k rifles with SS stamps and consider these not original too, because to them it would not make sense for the SS to "do" weapons themselves.

Good to see they have an open mind about things. I would ask that if the SS couldn't 'do' weapons, where did they all come from?
 
Oh, I would be pleased to follow a discussion of yours with them on SS rifles, not even needed to speak of possible SS usage of P.08 pistols :googlie
 
I had considered posting it there. First felt really unsure what section I should post it in (to which period this one would belong?), then decided to search for Deaths Head. The results given are a bit annoying - basically the Luger collectors deny even the possibility that there could had been such a pistol and they only separate between obvious fakes and items which are not obvious fakes. They neglect that there are K98k rifles with SS stamps and consider these not original too, because to them it would not make sense for the SS to "do" weapons themselves. As a result to this I decided I would first collect as much information and data as possible prior to posting on the Luger section.

As a member of that forum, and an active luger collector, I can assure you that not everyone there believes the SS K98k reworks are fakes. I think the primary difference in thinking on the K98ks versus the P08's is one of numbers and consistency.
Enough SS K98k reworks have surfaced to establish patterns and trends, Bruce and Mike do a great job of laying that out in their books. With the P08s, several with DHs have surfaced, but with many different types and without consistent application, and several have been obvious fakes. Combined with the fact that P08s were probably more heavily faked than K98ks for many years, and you can see the reason for skepticism. Faking lugers has been a cottage industry for some time, and some of the best are known in the collecting community and their wares are always looked at with suspicion. There are always going to be people that take extreme positions in any large group, but I think most luger collectors are open to being convinced if proper evidence surfaced.

There is a HD luger in the SOLD section of Pre98s site if you want to compare markings.
 
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There of course were discussions on the Luger boards and I was pleased to at least see several members there trying to start a discussion. So it wasn't that black and dark black as my post may had suggested. It however also seemed that those which tried to bring in new arguments were overruled by general replies and disbelief. And how would you want to discuss something with people who already have set up a black and white scheme? The few persons over there arguing in favor of the possibility that Deaths Head marked P.08 could exist were anyway the persons who are also K98k collectors and members in here.

I therefore didn't feel that it would be correct to start a topic in the Luger boards at this point because I don't think helpful new information would turn up with them. My idea was more to get opinions from K98k collectors where the Deaths Head marked K98k rifles are known and regarded, compare them with my Deaths Head marked P.08 and start a neutral and open discussion if the stamps are the same ones as found on K98k rifles, do they have anything else in common with the K98k rifles (same commercial proof stamps?), etc. Once results of such a research are present I guess it would be easier for Luger collectors to get into a discussion, making it tougher for them to neglect something and at the same time not be the 100th person who believes he has found a treasure and wants to get a free verification approval by the knowledgeable experts who could loose their name by doing so.
 
Well, some in here nevertheless convinced me to post on the Luger section of gunboards. I've made quite a long writeup with as much information as possible. I'm curious to see the reactions on this forum and wanted to make a cross-reference to over there for the members here to see what they think, but as well as a cross-reference in their forum to our forum here to maybe get some members from over there to also read this forum and maybe learn from K98k collectors:

https://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?118619-Deaths-Head-Luger-08&p=914389#post914389
 
All I can say is good luck. First thing off the bat, the guy who wrote the book on Simson Lugers suggests all the deaths heads are fake on any ww2 weapon. That’s a hard hurdle to cross and get any discussion going.


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I tried to cross the forums last month in a similar discussion. It went much smoother, but I don't just don't think the (luger) community is that interested in putting in the time to do the research. In their minds the research has already been done and the juice isn't worth the squeeze. It's going to take someone new to the (luger) community to cross reference data from both communities in detail and do the comparisons and lay out their theorem based on the findings.
 
In their defense, Luger collecting has been savaged by fakes for so long that they must be hyper sensitive. I’m not saying 98k’s have escaped such things, but it’s much easier to fake Lugers well (pistols in general - did you see the fake the established members/mods of the P38 forum made?) and SS in general.

But, to stop learning at some point and close your mind to new things isn’t helpful in any hobby. The issue is documentation only gets you so far.


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I have tried to roll over the discussion. It is tough to start from the basics and to first convince someone that Deaths Head proofs on Gew98 conversions really exist, but at least someone else over there said he does believe this way. Once this is done it isn't that far any more to get into an open discussion whether this could have happened with P.08 pistols as well.

Very helpful was a reply - I was told the proofs on my pistol are from Suhl and not from Spandau what it should had originally carried. This is a huge proof since the Gew98 to K98k conversions are all Suhl proofed either. I'm keen to what they think why it would had carried commercial proofs from Suhl and not from Spandau. If it was military replacement, it would not had needed this proof, if it was commercial, why would a private individual get the barrel replaced and reserialize all parts? I guess they will tell me they are fake either.
 
I usually don't like holsters, but when a friend came up with a holster collection for sale I asked him on a Deaths Head ... and this one was among them! Ugly holster, but as ugly as the pistol. Looks good next to it/with it.
 

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Why did this thread of mine went to the "Reworked Military Luger Study" section instead of the "SS, Police and Commercial Luger Study"?
 

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