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Thread: 8mm Mauser: 318 or 323 diamater?

  1. #1
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    Default 8mm Mauser: 318 or 323 diameter?

    Hi guys

    Just wondering which size bullets everyone fires out of their Gew 98's? I thought it was 323 but some of my 8 mm bullets seems a little smaller.

    thanks
    Last edited by redstar; 06-30-2020 at 12:46 AM.

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    The modernized spitzer cartridge 7.92x57 uses a .323 dia cartrage.

    I may be wrong on this info,
    The older cartridge used the smaller round .318

    But I use 200gr .323 speer hot core with some H414 (idk the grain load)

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    Default Bullet diameter

    The 8x57JS uses a .318 diameter round nosed bullet. This is the cartridge a Gew 88 is designed for. Later 8x57 rifles shoot a .323 bullet. It can be problematic but mostly ignored that Gew 88s bore is for the smaller bullet so shooting the larger bullets through it automatically increase pressure. I personally would never shoot modern 8x57 factory cartridge (especially the Eastern European or middle Eastern ones) through a Gew 88. I would load my own reduced pressure cartridges. I am not sure if any bullet manufacturers make .318 bullets.

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    German military rifles made 1888 to 1905 were barrelled w/a .318 groove diameter; after 1905, w/.323 groove barrels. Many .318 rifles were rebarrelled w/the larger groove dimension & use a larger bullet. Between the wars, German made sporting rifles were .318 grooved, relating to Versailles restricitons. (as always, there were exceptions to all of the above) .

    As others have written, if one is uncertain what groove diameter a particular rifle is, slug it/ have it slugged.
    On a quick search just now I found a 150 gn Sierra jacketed bullet &Buffalo Arms had a 170 gn, both .318 & in stock. I sure there are cast le options out there as well. If you shoot too small a bullet through a rifle, it will be inaccurate. SOMETIMES, if the bullet is too large, it can take your head/face off!

    shoot wisely.
    Munchener 1953

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    Actually most of the above is incorrect . The P-88 ammo had a .3188 dia bullet . The later S ammo had a .321 dia bullet [ and may be what the op was seeing ] , and the later sS ammo had a .323 dia bullet . No German military rifle EVER used a .318 groove barrel . The Gew-88 barrel sizes were first year - .314 - .3208 , after 89 they went to .311 - .3208 to deepen the rifling , then in 1896 1/2 they went to the Z barrel that was .311 - .323+ . NO GEW-98 EVER had a .318 barrel as they were never used and after 96 1/2 .323 became the standard . The S ammo was designed to be used in the Gew-88 . 1905 has nothing to do with ammo or barrel size . German civilian barrels did use around a .307 - .317 [ + / - ] barrel with a .3158 dia bullet loaded shorter in a cartridge which was different from the P-88 ammo and was used pre WWI and had nothing to do with any treaty . All of this is clearly stated in original German documents , and found in real rifles and ammo .

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    Most American made 8mm commercial ammo are compromise rounds loaded with a .320 bullet, and a bit underpowered, specifically to allow the rounds to be shot safely in both a .318 or .323 barrel.

    For example, Remington made 8mm Mauser ammo is loaded to reduced pressures, with a compromise bullet. The typical load is a 170 grain bullet at 2360 fps (energy: 2012 ft-lbs.).

    American ammunition companies have done this for years, on the off chance some person puts a full-pressure load intended for .323-inch bores into an older rifle with a smaller .318-inch bore, which blows up, and leaves them with a possible lawsuit.
    Last edited by DaveDavis; 07-01-2020 at 01:57 AM.

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    Earlier Winchester and Remington used their .321 dia Win Special bullet in their 8x57mm load . So it could be shot in the .321 Gew-88 rifles and not lose too much accuracy in the .323 rifles . It had nothing to do with .318 bores . Unless they reused a German military barrel , most German civilian rifles had bores were about .306 - .316 [ or + .001 ] and used a .3158 dia bullet . If you shoot a .321 dia bullet down a tight .306 bore [ land dia ] barrel you will get a large increase in pressure . In my tests you can pick up as much as 8,000 PSI [ a 19 % increase ] and 350 fps [ a 14 % increase ] . Also some US ammo does have a .323 dia bullet [ Federal ] . I have not shot any US made 8mm ammo in about 25 years , so I do not know what current REM and Win use .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muncher 1953 View Post
    German military rifles made 1888 to 1905 were barrelled w/a .318 groove diameter; after 1905, w/.323 groove barrels. Many .318 rifles were rebarrelled w/the larger groove dimension & use a larger bullet. Between the wars, German made sporting rifles were .318 grooved, relating to Versailles restricitons. (as always, there were exceptions to all of the above) .

    As others have written, if one is uncertain what groove diameter a particular rifle is, slug it/ have it slugged.
    On a quick search just now I found a 150 gn Sierra jacketed bullet &Buffalo Arms had a 170 gn, both .318 & in stock. I sure there are cast le options out there as well. If you shoot too small a bullet through a rifle, it will be inaccurate. SOMETIMES, if the bullet is too large, it can take your head/face off!

    shoot wisely.
    Someone else seemed to be quoting the above info from an article on 8mm ammo and had a link to it . It has all the same incorrect info in it that you posted , so it my be the source you used ? In the article I read EVERYTHING written was wrong . I do not mean 50% or 75% , 100% every fact . Why would someone who clearly has NO idea what they are talking about write an article about a subject ? It was not that old either .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ernie8 View Post
    Actually most of the above is incorrect . The P-88 ammo had a .3188 dia bullet . The later S ammo had a .321 dia bullet [ and may be what the op was seeing ] , and the later sS ammo had a .323 dia bullet . No German military rifle EVER used a .318 groove barrel . The Gew-88 barrel sizes were first year - .314 - .3208 , after 89 they went to .311 - .3208 to deepen the rifling , then in 1896 1/2 they went to the Z barrel that was .311 - .323+ . NO GEW-98 EVER had a .318 barrel as they were never used and after 96 1/2 .323 became the standard . The S ammo was designed to be used in the Gew-88 . 1905 has nothing to do with ammo or barrel size . German civilian barrels did use around a .307 - .317 [ + / - ] barrel with a .3158 dia bullet loaded shorter in a cartridge which was different from the P-88 ammo and was used pre WWI and had nothing to do with any treaty . All of this is clearly stated in original German documents , and found in real rifles and ammo .
    And to add to Ernie's treatise ; 1903 was the year that gew98 was made for the S patronen.And Amberg was the last producer of 88 patronen sighted gew98's that year ( politics kinda kept them behind the change curves . As far as I have been able to find 1905 was the year the germans started to update gew88's to handle S patronen , hence the confusion of some with adoption of S patronen introduction.
    D卐M☭CRATz can bite my Azz

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    Other than sight changes all Gew-98's from day 1 were made for S ammo . The Germans went to the .323 barrel in 1896 1/2 , so all 98's had that size barrel . There was never a .318 barrel in any military rifle , just .321 and .323 , and only the .323 in 98's . The S ammo was designed for the Gew-88 rifle . The Germans had P ammo and S ammo in service side by side and did not decide on the standard for a while . The 1903 and 1905 dates are misunderstood . S ammo started development in 1896 1/2 . I have seen a 1897 dated round in a German collection and have a 1900 myself . 1903 was a patent date and 1905 was the date for S ammo in stripper clips .
    The S ammo was a way to get a 6.5mm Swede battle zero with the 8mm , something the P ammo could not come close to . That is why they went to the 400 meter battle sight in 1905 . P ammo and S ammo could be / and was fired in both rifles . The final barrel , land , groove , chamber and throat was made standard in 1896 1/2 and was used to 1945 . That is why a 1918 Gew-98 or a 1945 98k has a throat long enough to chamber P ammo . The original German ammo tests are dated , they tell of bore size trials , they tested killing power [ the P ammo won and that is why some wanted to keep it ] , S ammo was made to have the highest velocity they could obtain with the 8x57 case . That is why it is .321 bullet in a .323 bore and has almost no bearing surface [ to lower bore friction ] , why the bullet is seated so shallow in the case [ to max out case capacity for powder ] . All Gew-98s were made with the S stamped on the barrel , as were Gew-88's made after 96 1/2 . It was just a way to tell the avg trooper that it was ok to use S ammo , the markings had to be consistent so no mater if he had a Gew-88 , Gew-88/05 or a Gew-98 he knew what to use . The training manual tells how to put S ammo into your Gew-88's en-bloc clip and use it if your rifle has the S , even though the sights are wrong . People get the dates, reasons and the such mixed up and make up stuff so it will match .

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