8mm Mauser: 318 or 323 diamater?
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WAZUP13579
Senior Member
The modernized spitzer cartridge 7.92x57 uses a .323 dia cartrage.
I may be wrong on this info,
The older cartridge used the smaller round .318
But I use 200gr .323 speer hot core with some H414 (idk the grain load)
I may be wrong on this info,
The older cartridge used the smaller round .318
But I use 200gr .323 speer hot core with some H414 (idk the grain load)
Bullet diameter
The 8x57JS uses a .318 diameter round nosed bullet. This is the cartridge a Gew 88 is designed for. Later 8x57 rifles shoot a .323 bullet. It can be problematic but mostly ignored that Gew 88s bore is for the smaller bullet so shooting the larger bullets through it automatically increase pressure. I personally would never shoot modern 8x57 factory cartridge (especially the Eastern European or middle Eastern ones) through a Gew 88. I would load my own reduced pressure cartridges. I am not sure if any bullet manufacturers make .318 bullets.
The 8x57JS uses a .318 diameter round nosed bullet. This is the cartridge a Gew 88 is designed for. Later 8x57 rifles shoot a .323 bullet. It can be problematic but mostly ignored that Gew 88s bore is for the smaller bullet so shooting the larger bullets through it automatically increase pressure. I personally would never shoot modern 8x57 factory cartridge (especially the Eastern European or middle Eastern ones) through a Gew 88. I would load my own reduced pressure cartridges. I am not sure if any bullet manufacturers make .318 bullets.
Muncher 1953
Senior Member
German military rifles made 1888 to 1905 were barrelled w/a .318” groove diameter; after 1905, w/.323” groove barrels. Many .318” rifles were rebarrelled w/the larger groove dimension & use a larger bullet. Between the wars, German made sporting rifles were .318” grooved, relating to Versailles restricitons. (as always, there were exceptions to all of the above) .
As others have written, if one is uncertain what groove diameter a particular rifle is, slug it/ have it slugged.
On a quick search just now I found a 150 gn Sierra jacketed bullet &Buffalo Arms had a 170 gn, both .318” & in stock. I’ sure there are cast le options out there as well. If you shoot too small a bullet through a rifle, it will be inaccurate. SOMETIMES, if the bullet is too large, it can take your head/face off!
shoot wisely.
As others have written, if one is uncertain what groove diameter a particular rifle is, slug it/ have it slugged.
On a quick search just now I found a 150 gn Sierra jacketed bullet &Buffalo Arms had a 170 gn, both .318” & in stock. I’ sure there are cast le options out there as well. If you shoot too small a bullet through a rifle, it will be inaccurate. SOMETIMES, if the bullet is too large, it can take your head/face off!
shoot wisely.
Actually most of the above is incorrect . The P-88 ammo had a .3188 dia bullet . The later S ammo had a .321 dia bullet [ and may be what the op was seeing ] , and the later sS ammo had a .323 dia bullet . No German military rifle EVER used a .318 groove barrel . The Gew-88 barrel sizes were first year - .314 - .3208 , after 89 they went to .311 - .3208 to deepen the rifling , then in 1896 1/2 they went to the Z barrel that was .311 - .323+ . NO GEW-98 EVER had a .318 barrel as they were never used and after 96 1/2 .323 became the standard . The S ammo was designed to be used in the Gew-88 . 1905 has nothing to do with ammo or barrel size . German civilian barrels did use around a .307 - .317 [ + / - ] barrel with a .3158 dia bullet loaded shorter in a cartridge which was different from the P-88 ammo and was used pre WWI and had nothing to do with any treaty . All of this is clearly stated in original German documents , and found in real rifles and ammo .
DaveDavis
Senior Member
Most American made 8mm commercial ammo are compromise rounds loaded with a .320 bullet, and a bit underpowered, specifically to allow the rounds to be shot safely in both a .318 or .323 barrel.
For example, Remington made 8mm Mauser ammo is loaded to reduced pressures, with a compromise bullet. The typical load is a 170 grain bullet at 2360 fps (energy: 2012 ft-lbs.).
American ammunition companies have done this for years, on the off chance some person puts a full-pressure load intended for .323-inch bores into an older rifle with a smaller .318-inch bore, which blows up, and leaves them with a possible lawsuit.
For example, Remington made 8mm Mauser ammo is loaded to reduced pressures, with a compromise bullet. The typical load is a 170 grain bullet at 2360 fps (energy: 2012 ft-lbs.).
American ammunition companies have done this for years, on the off chance some person puts a full-pressure load intended for .323-inch bores into an older rifle with a smaller .318-inch bore, which blows up, and leaves them with a possible lawsuit.
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Earlier Winchester and Remington used their .321 dia Win Special bullet in their 8x57mm load . So it could be shot in the .321 Gew-88 rifles and not lose too much accuracy in the .323 rifles . It had nothing to do with .318 bores . Unless they reused a German military barrel , most German civilian rifles had bores were about .306 - .316 [ or + .001 ] and used a .3158 dia bullet . If you shoot a .321 dia bullet down a tight .306 bore [ land dia ] barrel you will get a large increase in pressure . In my tests you can pick up as much as 8,000 PSI [ a 19 % increase ] and 350 fps [ a 14 % increase ] . Also some US ammo does have a .323 dia bullet [ Federal ] . I have not shot any US made 8mm ammo in about 25 years , so I do not know what current REM and Win use .
Someone else seemed to be quoting the above info from an article on 8mm ammo and had a link to it . It has all the same incorrect info in it that you posted , so it my be the source you used ? In the article I read EVERYTHING written was wrong . I do not mean 50% or 75% , 100% every fact . Why would someone who clearly has NO idea what they are talking about write an article about a subject ? It was not that old either .
gew98
Well-known member
And to add to Ernie's treatise ; 1903 was the year that gew98 was made for the S patronen.And Amberg was the last producer of 88 patronen sighted gew98's that year ( politics kinda kept them behind the change curves . As far as I have been able to find 1905 was the year the germans started to update gew88's to handle S patronen , hence the confusion of some with adoption of S patronen introduction.
Other than sight changes all Gew-98's from day 1 were made for S ammo . The Germans went to the .323 barrel in 1896 1/2 , so all 98's had that size barrel . There was never a .318 barrel in any military rifle , just .321 and .323 , and only the .323 in 98's . The S ammo was designed for the Gew-88 rifle . The Germans had P ammo and S ammo in service side by side and did not decide on the standard for a while . The 1903 and 1905 dates are misunderstood . S ammo started development in 1896 1/2 . I have seen a 1897 dated round in a German collection and have a 1900 myself . 1903 was a patent date and 1905 was the date for S ammo in stripper clips .
The S ammo was a way to get a 6.5mm Swede battle zero with the 8mm , something the P ammo could not come close to . That is why they went to the 400 meter battle sight in 1905 . P ammo and S ammo could be / and was fired in both rifles . The final barrel , land , groove , chamber and throat was made standard in 1896 1/2 and was used to 1945 . That is why a 1918 Gew-98 or a 1945 98k has a throat long enough to chamber P ammo . The original German ammo tests are dated , they tell of bore size trials , they tested killing power [ the P ammo won and that is why some wanted to keep it ] , S ammo was made to have the highest velocity they could obtain with the 8x57 case . That is why it is .321 bullet in a .323 bore and has almost no bearing surface [ to lower bore friction ] , why the bullet is seated so shallow in the case [ to max out case capacity for powder ] . All Gew-98s were made with the S stamped on the barrel , as were Gew-88's made after 96 1/2 . It was just a way to tell the avg trooper that it was ok to use S ammo , the markings had to be consistent so no mater if he had a Gew-88 , Gew-88/05 or a Gew-98 he knew what to use . The training manual tells how to put S ammo into your Gew-88's en-bloc clip and use it if your rifle has the S , even though the sights are wrong . People get the dates, reasons and the such mixed up and make up stuff so it will match .
The S ammo was a way to get a 6.5mm Swede battle zero with the 8mm , something the P ammo could not come close to . That is why they went to the 400 meter battle sight in 1905 . P ammo and S ammo could be / and was fired in both rifles . The final barrel , land , groove , chamber and throat was made standard in 1896 1/2 and was used to 1945 . That is why a 1918 Gew-98 or a 1945 98k has a throat long enough to chamber P ammo . The original German ammo tests are dated , they tell of bore size trials , they tested killing power [ the P ammo won and that is why some wanted to keep it ] , S ammo was made to have the highest velocity they could obtain with the 8x57 case . That is why it is .321 bullet in a .323 bore and has almost no bearing surface [ to lower bore friction ] , why the bullet is seated so shallow in the case [ to max out case capacity for powder ] . All Gew-98s were made with the S stamped on the barrel , as were Gew-88's made after 96 1/2 . It was just a way to tell the avg trooper that it was ok to use S ammo , the markings had to be consistent so no mater if he had a Gew-88 , Gew-88/05 or a Gew-98 he knew what to use . The training manual tells how to put S ammo into your Gew-88's en-bloc clip and use it if your rifle has the S , even though the sights are wrong . People get the dates, reasons and the such mixed up and make up stuff so it will match .
Muncher 1953
Senior Member
Interesting, verifiable sources?
haak48
Senior Member
"S" ball
Just another fact. The "S" ball projectile has nearly the same engraving length as the "sS" heavy ball. Also, because of the difference in profiles, the "S" bullet engages the lead sooner. It's cupped base allows it to upset and fill the bore, a plus in worn or deeply grooved barrels. Picture one shows the bore riding surfaces of the two projectiles, picture two shows that surface in relationship to the lead (two "S" ball, 1 sS Regards, JH
Just another fact. The "S" ball projectile has nearly the same engraving length as the "sS" heavy ball. Also, because of the difference in profiles, the "S" bullet engages the lead sooner. It's cupped base allows it to upset and fill the bore, a plus in worn or deeply grooved barrels. Picture one shows the bore riding surfaces of the two projectiles, picture two shows that surface in relationship to the lead (two "S" ball, 1 sS Regards, JH
Attachments
Your photo shows how little of the S bullet is in the case . Yes the hollow base allows gas seal with minimal bore friction , to give the most velocity with the least pressure . A lot of my Z bore Gew-88 rifles and many of my early Gew-98 rifles have grooves up to .325 , but with no wear on the bore [ lands ] which are still a tight .311 . They were pretty consistent on their bore size as that is what was important and the easiest to machine [ bore ]. The grooves were less important as the hollow base bullet would seal and they were harder to make exact as the rifling cutting wore quicker and was cut , not bored . As long as the minimum [ .323 ] was met , a little more did not hurt .
haak48
Senior Member
CZ bore sizes
I really covet my ZB-26 barrels that are broad land patterned. Besides have a ball seat much shorter than the standard throat in the German pattern, the bores are much tighter, running .3090/.3100". Occupation G24 (t) & 33/40 rifles that used existing stocks of these barrels are often marked: 7.88 or as small as 7.85. Grooves still run .3235/.3240. Even heavy worn, these barrels will still continue to shoot well with the sS load. Most heavy worn standard pattern barrels will give poor results, until the S ball loading is used, which can extend the service life several thousand more rounds. Regards, JH
I really covet my ZB-26 barrels that are broad land patterned. Besides have a ball seat much shorter than the standard throat in the German pattern, the bores are much tighter, running .3090/.3100". Occupation G24 (t) & 33/40 rifles that used existing stocks of these barrels are often marked: 7.88 or as small as 7.85. Grooves still run .3235/.3240. Even heavy worn, these barrels will still continue to shoot well with the sS load. Most heavy worn standard pattern barrels will give poor results, until the S ball loading is used, which can extend the service life several thousand more rounds. Regards, JH
Muncher 1953
Senior Member
info on some other caliber/barrels/bullets?
ernie,
what can you tell me about Argentine M1909s in 7.65 x53 ? In particular, rifles made under the 1909 contract & made by DWM in 1910, the cavalry carbine & engineer’s rifle. Are the Argentine-made cav carbines made in the early ‘50s an different in terms land & groove dimensions from the German-made rifles? My interest lies w/the shorter 1909 Argies in particular.
thanks,
ernie,
what can you tell me about Argentine M1909s in 7.65 x53 ? In particular, rifles made under the 1909 contract & made by DWM in 1910, the cavalry carbine & engineer’s rifle. Are the Argentine-made cav carbines made in the early ‘50s an different in terms land & groove dimensions from the German-made rifles? My interest lies w/the shorter 1909 Argies in particular.
thanks,
I have done most of my research with Gew-88's and 98's . The original 1891 Arg rifle was the German narrow land rifling with the grooves running around .314+ for the long .310 dia rn bullet bore riding . They tended to like long flat base bullets . The 09's seem to be a little smaller at .312 . I have never checked my late made rifles and carbines . I got them to shoot well during load testing and never did much else . I have been sitting on ONE box of the very old Speer .313 dia 210 rn bullets , I guess I can make that a new shooting test with some 91's . In the 1950's Speer really knew how to make bullets for the old military rifles , that has become a lost art now . I also did a really good study of French 8mm Lebel bores and loads . 35 different Berthiers and Lebels measured and tested .
I did use up my old Speer bullets in load testing with a mint M-91 school rifle . The accuracy was the best I have had with a M-91 Arg . The best load did an average of 1.55 for four 5-shot 100 yard groups with the best group being one of the best iron sighted groups I have ever shot at 0.65 . Now I will spend years looking for some more of those bullets .
