Unusual Early Scope Mount?

Hello all -

I acquired this early Walther scope mount and matching scope as part of a bigger collection. This differs from the mid and late war mounts in my collection as the screws and dowels are in the white, the bands are blued, and it has a center bend pressure lever. However, the locking catch is missing - I thought it was weird until I noted that there are no holes through the bottom of the mount for the corresponding roll pin and spring arm - has anyone seen something like this before? All comments and opinions appreciated.

Regards,

Ernie

Two more pictures.

Very interesting Ernie. It appears original to me but I don't quite know what to make of it. I'll be curious to see what Brian K thinks.

That is cool. This may be link to the early ac43 and cosmetic receivers with scope rail without the notch.

sturmgrenadier said:

That is cool. This may be link to the early ac43 and cosmetic receivers with scope rail without the notch.

Click to expand...

It could very well also be for G.41(W) rifles. I also noticed the unique shape rubber eyecup, which is also very interesting.

I've recently came across a whole amount of original documents, these would indicate there were no K.43 with scopes made in 1943, only as prototypes. Yet have to fully read them several times to make conclusions.

Interesting and rather unique mount.

First off, does the mount have the "indexing" holes on the vertical struts?

One can only assume it was intended to be used on the early rifles, that did not have the notch in the scope rail.

The rubber eyecup is accepted as an early "reverse taper" version, used on early examples, which makes sense for this rig.

Yes, rubber eye cup is a known variation.

If this is an early set, then doesn't the scope seem a little to late for an early mount? 38K serial number range. Just a thought.

If this is an early set, then doesn't the scope seem a little to late for an early mount? 38K serial number range. Just a thought.[/QUOTE]

That is a very good and legitimate question. They have been assumed to be early, with the dual numbered mounts, blued bands, blued mount, stamped numbers etc. etc. (typical accepted signs of early production). I think Kiebler felt they belonged around the "e" block maybe?? Wish we knew more specific information on these mounts. They are manufactured slightly different from your more typical mounts.

I feel they may have been just an initial production version, with later ones showing improvements, as the war progressed, just a guess though. The few I have seen (with stamped numbers) have been basically the same...this is the second one I have seen without the catch.

Maybe others out there have more hard data to add.

Thanks for all of the comments and observations so far.

I do not see any holes on the vertical struts but maybe I am not looking in the right place - can someone post a picture of the "indexing" holes and their location so I can recheck?

As far as the scope number being relatively high, I paused on that as well until I checked Hitler's Garands - the three early mounts featured on pages 258-59 are paired with scopes "21250," "54985," and "50107" so I concluded that "38643" being paired with my mount was not so unusual.

Thoughts?

Ernie

Regarding the scope serial number.... perhaps Walther received the first 50K (more or less) scopes all at once as their first shipment? Then they proceed to fit mounts with scopes with no regards to scope serial number (why would they?). Thus why there is no reasoning behind scope serial numbers in regards to early, mid or late mounts. Just a thought, is this makes any sense.

mdarnell19 said:

Regarding the scope serial number.... perhaps Walther received the first 50K (more or less) scopes all at once as their first shipment? Then they proceed to fit mounts with scopes with no regards to scope serial number (why would they?). Thus why there is no reasoning behind scope serial numbers in regards to early, mid or late mounts. Just a thought, is this makes any sense.

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Good theory and makes sense. Also, maybe some of the scopes had issues, were set aside, repaired when they had "free time" and then thrown back on a mount when repaired. I'm pretty sure the scope SN meant nothing to them. We may never know for sure.

scope and mount ..

... have had this scope & mount for about ten years. i like it. with no lever, reverse taper eye cup, bzz, & it also has a serial number lightly etched on it . it is stuck down in one of my gun safes right now & i can not recall the number, something like 2685??? . also in HG. ... t

rifles 087

Ernie,
That's a very interesting mount set indeed! Without writing an article about your mount, here are some basics: Brian K is spot on. Original set although I am cautious of the bands. From my dual numbered mount study that mount falls right in line for either a late "C" or early "D" block rifle. One of the reference points of my list is a dual numbered mount mated to both the scope and rifle is 1913 (d) (receiver) and 41017 (scope). Yours falls right before this one. The "anomalies" of this mount such as: the extra machining of the mount; the waffenamt out of the normal place of stamp, are characteristics of similar mounts that appear to be prevalent in a zone that covers the late C, D, and early E block snipers. A must have is pictures of the "indexing holes" in the struts or lack of. The presents or non-presents of these indexing holes will not change the originality of your mount.

The absents of the locking lever and supporting hole for it is very interesting. It is my opinion that the mount was definitely made for the G41 or G43 ac43 rifle. It is also my opinion that ZF4 scopes were mated to an unnumbered mount, then mated to a rifle, tested and then numbered once all components passed testing. Your mount could have been left over stock that was inadvertently placed with the later modified mounts for the notched rails and still utilized. The more I think about this it could be quite a discussion so I think I will let it go at this.

Again, more great information, thanks to everyone who responded.

There are no "indexing holes" - see attached pictures. Also, I took the scope off the mount last night to make sure the cradle has the appropriate machining marks - it does (forgot to take a picture, sorry).

With the scope off, I examined the bands more closely. They include elliptical side cuts and measure up exactly against other bands in my collection that I believe are 100% period. I recognize that those two features are not conclusive, just two more data points.

Keep the comments coming please.

Ernie

..mount ...

...... got this scopemount out of the safe and got a quik photo. .. the index holes are right under the bands. there is a 359 stamp by the lever and the serial number is lightly etched on the left side. i could not get a pic of them because they are so light. the number is " 2385 "....... t

ttt 052

One of the items I should have addressed earlier is the discussion of the relatively high scope number on such an early mount. ZF4 scope manufacturers numbered their scopes consecutively as they were produced. In my dual numbered mount study, this consecutive numbering system of scopes is how my succeeding listing of dual numbered mounts is originated. This is verified by the four factory matching dual numbered snipers in the study. Now, for any "rule of thumb" in collecting there are exceptions. One example from the study is a 20k scope number mated to a very late mount. The mount is an engraved dual numbered mount. Engraved dual numbered mounts only appear for a short time and only at the end of the dual numbering system directive. The mount is also the only phosphated finish mount thus far in the study. Phosphate finish mounts are a late change in finish and assembly on mounts. Conclusion is that an early scope was still available in stock and happened to be mated to a very late mount and rifle. Same conclusion applies here. Mount was available and used on a later rifle. Because the scope was mated, stamped dual numbered to the mount, it is highly unlikely that the scope and mount was mated to a G41 nor a G43ac43. Clear as mud, right?