Interesting Late Variant Hawig rg34 Chain

Continuing research has located several examples of a rather unusual late war cleaning kit chain (reinigungskette) found in Hawig kits. The typical cleaning chain found with cmr44 and '45 cans is a version constructed with pinch seamed, steel beads and a simplified stamped patch loop. There is often a single gray alloy bead behind the patch loop (see attached). These chains can also be found in some cmr43 tins. The variant chains as shown in the attached pics have been found in a few examples of cmr kits from 1944 and '45. The pull through is constructed of small wire oval chain links each individually spot welded. The patch loop is similarly constructed but larger in size to accommodate the cleaning threads. The individual chain links are 20 mm while the terminating patch loop is 32 mm. The overall length of the chain is 101 cm. Construction is all steel. These chains are shown at the bottom of the attached photograph. Observed even less frequently are the chains shown at the top of the same photo. These chains feature identical oval wire chain links but terminate with the more typical rotating toggle assembly and machined patch loop. There are two beads behind the toggle; one aluminum and one gray alloy. All of the chains in this variation that I have examined have been in this configuration. These chains to my knowledge have only been located in the late CNX marked tins finished by G. Appel from parts and components transferred from Mundlos and Hawig. Generally thought to have been assembled in very late 1944 into 1945. Like the earlier variant Hawig chains these are 101 cm in length. Construction is all steel but for the aforementioned beads behind the toggle. I am of the opinion the the CNX chains were part of the material transferred to G. Appel by Hawig. Appel apparently decided to finish the pull throughs with a more traditional albeit later variant toggle instead of the larger welded wire patch loop. Unsure how these chains would have offered expediency in production as each link required a spot weld? Perhaps they were manufactured for another function and repurposed for the rg34? More research is required.

Thanks for posting those most unusual RGKs, Slash. Never seen either one of these before today...or so I thought! Recalled a cmr44 kit I had sitting around awaiting a HKW, but also remembered something was not right with the RGK...it had blued beads. So, dug it out and RGK is pictured below. Do I have a winner?

Interesting research. I have no experience in these yet but any photos of good variations is good to have!

pwcosol said:

Do I have a winner?

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Thanks for the kind words pwcosol. To my eye your reinigungskette is the type most often encountered in association with Braunschweigische kits. The short almost square thin steel beads are sometimes blued as seen in your example. The wire patch loop with inner "tail" is also distinctive. They may be found in other makers' tins as well however. Nice chain though .....

I posted this one about five years ago.... entry #7

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?18890-Did-anybody-buy-the-485-00-cleaning-kit

I think the chains shown in the first picture by Slash (typical late cmr) are the most common in late 1944 and 1945 kits. As Slash said these chains usually have the first link cover behind the patch loop made from an alloy, but it seems that at the end this was eliminated and were made with all link covers from steel. In my opinion this type of chain was apeared first in the Hawig Rg34's of 1944 and, if well preserved, shows a bright finish, like polished.

With regard to the late war chains with welded links, personally I have seen very few of them and most loose. I enclose pictures of one example of this late chain, the type with the standard rotating head, It measures 104 cm and is identical to the one shown before by Slash. It has the cnx markings on its base.

Antoni

Peter S said:

I posted this one about five years ago.... entry #7

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I still have your pics Peter from when you sent them to me years ago. At that time it was the first chain of this type I had ever seen. And have seen VERY few since.

Thanks to all whom have added to this thread. I view our fellow collectors as "History Detectives". Through our research and collaboration, we attempt to divine how and why things came to be decades ago. Since there are likely no people left in the world with first-hand knowledge of the information we seek, we attempt to put the puzzle together ourselves...one of the joys of being a collector.

Peter S said:

I posted this one about five years ago.... entry #7

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?18890-Did-anybody-buy-the-485-00-cleaning-kit

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As collectors, I think we all strive to find items exhibiting both originality and optimum condition. With the Rg34, we now have a pretty good idea (thanks to the dedicated research of a few and the contribution of information by many) what components are most typically considered "correct" for a specific manufacturer and time frame. It is apparent as WW2 began and moved towards it's conclusion, many minor manufacturing changes in the components took place. This increased even more with the addition of sub-contracted parts being added to the mix as well. When one acquires a Rg34, quite often it may be missing a component and/or be found to have parts from a different manufacturer and time frame than markings evident on the tin. Though the kit did not leave the factory in this state when originally made, it may have ended up just this way by the time the war ended. In addition, possible reuse by a USGI during the war or post WW2 reissue and use may have compromised the kit even further. Lastly, collectors often find such kits and tend to either restore them or use the components when this is not practical, to set right other kits. There really is no right or wrong here...just preference of the individual collector.

IMHO these chains are either some east German shite or recent phantasy products!
Sorry, but it does not make any sense to introduce a "new" chain that needs more labor and more trained workers, when the Army tried to simplify the production on everything.
Thanks

Well, my shite chain was purchased in a cmr 45 kit about 30 years ago, so at least it's not a recent fantasy.

Amberg said:

IMHO these chains are either some east German shite or recent phantasy products! Sorry, but it does not make any sense to introduce a "new" chain that needs more labor and more trained workers, when the Army tried to simplify the production on everything.
Thanks

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Rather a strong opinion voiced here. At least with the blued, beaded variants it may be the metal treatment isn't bluing as in a applied finish, but rather the result of the manufacturing process and not being cleaned & polished off. The "long-link" RGK could be reuse of period utility chain...not unlike the "figure-8" utility chain seen in the some of the E. German Rg34s. The author of this thread has decades of observations, research and a extensive personal collection behind him for reference. IMHO no one is infallible, but his expertise comes from this accrued knowledge which few others have and I am appreciative of his willingness to share it with the Forum.

I think like pwcosol, no one is infallible. I think also without a doubt these types of chains need more research, as well as many other points related to the Rg34.

With the information available now, IMHO I see these type of chains as original wartime manufactured. Although the possible origin of these simplified chains is well exposed in the first post by Slash, I'm the opinion that these chains maybe were assembled as erzatz or replacement chains at Depot level, using original replacement standard rotating heads and a chain for general use, such as this type of closed welded links chain. This would explain the presence of the aluminium link between the standard rotating head and the closed welded links chain. The presence of the "cnx" markings in some of these chains, would refer to the manufacturer of the erzatz standard rotating head (Gustav Appel). The second type of this chain, the version with the welded closed link head, would be a simplification of the first type.
I have only one exemplar of both chains, and were obtained some years ago from different sources and as single pieces, not inside a Rg34. We need more examples of these chains and the context of where and how they were found to advance.

Antoni

Well stated, Antoni. You are another long-time collector/researcher of the Rg34 and I, for one, value your contributions as well...

pwcosol said:

Rather a strong opinion voiced here. ....... The author of this thread has decades of observations, research and a extensive personal collection behind him for reference. IMHO no one is infallible, but his expertise comes from this accrued knowledge which few others have and I am appreciative of his willingness to share it with the Forum.

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Questioning Slash's opinion, I'm now guilty of insult of majesty! OK, I can live with that.
Whereas I pretty much lost interest in collecting RG34s after the prices went absurd, I still have my old collection. Such chains did not show up prior to the fall of the iron curtain. At least not in my neck of the woods.
Most showed up in the past few years.
I simply do not regard them as period WWII until I find proof.
Thanks

Amberg said:

Questioning Slash's opinion, I'm now guilty of insult of majesty! OK, I can live with that. Whereas I pretty much lost interest in collecting RG34s after the prices went absurd, I still have my old collection. Such chains did not show up prior to the fall of the iron curtain. At least not in my neck of the woods. Most showed up in the past few years. I simply do not regard them as period WWII until I find proof.
Thanks

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There is nothing wrong with presenting an opposing point of view. Discourse is one of the primary functions of an open Forum. Perhaps your choice of adjectives to describe the RGKs was too emphatic. Being another long-time collector of the Rg34, your observations and input are important. It is understandable collectors are more circumspect than ever about things we may not have encountered before...and with good reason! We have seen faux code markings, WaA acceptances, etc. applied to Rg34 tins and HKWs, E German Rg34s loaded with WW2 produced components marketed as "rare trials" kits and doctored paint jobs on Rg34 tins being passed off as of WW2 period. If there is one thing I have learned when it comes to WW2 arms and militaria, there are few absolutes.

Wanted to bump and add to this thread, it’s such a great discovery. After all this time I finally have the 3 variants of this chain. CNX chain came in a late box without latches, ab44 came in a late can with WaA313 acceptance, and cmr44 chain came in a standard late Wa14 accepted can.

After close study, to me it appears the company supplying the “paper clip” type patch loops were the suppliers of this type of chain. The wire is identical and if you took the loop from the cmr44 type and bent/welded it you would end up with a paper clip end.

mrfarb said:

Wanted to bump and add to this thread, it’s such a great discovery. After all this time I finally have the 3 variants of this chain. CNX chain came in a late box without latches, ab44 came in a late can with WaA313 acceptance, and cmr44 chain came in a standard late Wa14 accepted can.

After close study, to me it appears the company supplying the “paper clip” type patch loops were the suppliers of this type of chain. The wire is identical and if you took the loop from the cmr44 type and bent/welded it you would end up with a paper clip end.

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I agree with everything you are saying mrfarb. I have these classified as Type 6 chains. And as shown in your pic above they are from left to right 6a, 6b, and 6c. Some of the 6a chains are marked cnx however most are unmarked. The 6a chains can have either an aluminum or gray alloy bead behind the toggle assembly. The 6b chains are usually observed with two light steel beads behind the loop. Your comments on where found also match the examples in my collection as well as research observations. None of these chains are common but in my experience the 6b is the rarest to encounter followed by the 6c and then the 6a. My thoughts only ......

Can definitely see the unbent and welded loop. Neat observation. They are a cool chain type.