Questionable 1939 660

mrfarb said:

..Read the 1939 proof law and you will see.

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Thanks Mike! We're all just living in your world. (not sarcasm)

mrfarb said:

As to fire proofing barrels before installation, I doubt it seriously. The chamber wasn’t cut to length as that was done after installation, and altering the chamber of a barrel would seem to trip the proof law requirement of needing to be pressure tested again, canceling out any existing proof? I’ve seen used barrels recycled and the existing pressure test proof was redone, I’m pretty sure when a new barrel is installed it requires proofing by law.

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Recently was looking at a bnz43 or bnz42 that just came in to a large stock gun dealer .. it had the firing proofs on receiver as well as on barrel stamped upside down. The person who applied the firing proofs had the stamp 180° turned in hands. And this simple fact is a proof the whole rifle together was proofed, not barrel and action separately.

Finally, when speaking on firing proofs: remember the Wehrmacht was above proof law. They did proof the guns, but the Wehrmacht proof would not be considered a proof per proof law. As a result to this per current German proof laws rifles that only carry Wehrmacht-proof have to be re-proofed, whereas a commercial firing proof from the same period is considered still valid.

flynaked said:

While it is a completely different geometry for headspacing, here is an example of a barrel assy proofed before assembly to a receiver. As you can see the proofs are nearly lost as the barrel is final ground to bring the double Kersten locks into detent within the receiver.

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Clay, this is very different for commercial rifles, especially higher class hunting rifles. They are proofed "in the white" at the earliest possible stage. This is to avoid putting tons of hours into a rifle only that it then fails the proof. Therefore they get the necessary parts together, proof it, and if this is successful then it is finished.

Finally, re the other question: it is quite common to see several proofs and repairs on break barrel guns. Especially since sometimes soldering had to be repaired, or as mentioned in previous paragraph, the gun might just had been provisionally soldered barrels for the proof plus no finish at all, only to get proper soldering (correctly alignment of the barrels to shoot correctly) and finish after proof (then stock plus engraving).

Agreed, you often see them on guns with lengthened chambers. An interesting one I handled a few months ago, was a pre WW1 Oberndorf in 7mm, rebored in 1939 to 8x57, it carried the Instandsetzung proof on both the barrel and top dead center of the bolt body, I’ve never seen a bolt proofed there before, quite an interesting rifle!

Mike was kind enough to send a copy of the proof law, I’ll check it out this week.

Quality thread discussion.

flynaked said:

That may very well be or..

I may catch some flak for this theory, but here’s something I’ve been pondering. I’m starting to wonder if under certain circumstances, barrels were provisionally proofed before assembly. As far as I know, this is positively documented to not be the case when it comes to factory assembly. What about on ordnance spares though? Here’s another depot barrel with a small fire proof stamped randomly under the wood line.

This was already a practice long before the Mauser 98 ever came into being. Testing a barrel with a fixture plugging the breech was a way too ensure a smith didn’t complete a weapon, only to find out it had a bad barrel. Direct evidence of this is readily apparent when you study drillings and shotguns etc. Often the fire proofs would be physically impossible to stamp in their current locations, with the weapon assembled, as they are often half way obscured by the soldered ribs that hold the barrels together.

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FWIW I believe that in the US the spare barrels made for Springfield rifles WERE proof tested and marked “P” before being shipped to armories or depots, so it WAS done this way at least for M1903 series rifles during WWII.

David


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0ver $4,000.00 .......

DaveDavis said:

0ver $4,000.00 .......

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4,500 and still going! Makes me consider selling my 1940 660 code!

Wow, $4,825! I thought about it after learning more on here, but I think I need to cut my teeth with something more run of the mill.

Beautiful rifle though...hopefully it went to a good home!

two people really wanted it

DaveDavis said:

0ver $4,000.00 .......

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