Third Party Press

CE 43 - Matching Duffle Cut

PrayingMantis

Senior Member
Unfortunately I wasn't able to make it to the SOS, but in an attempt to console myself I went to small local show today. My expectations were low, and after about twenty minutes I was ready to leave, but then my friend spotted a guy with a K98k who had just walked through the door. After talking to the owner, looking at the reference thread on here with my phone, and some haggling, I picked up this matching CE 43.

The story goes that the previous owner I bought it from, a local contractor, found it in the wall of a house that had partially burned. Buy the gun, not the story, but either way he didn't do anything other than glue the stock and the fore-end back together, which has since come apart.I was hesitant to buy it because the handguard and band retention spring were both missing, but decided it was still a good price. I was very worried about it being humped, but it doesn't have any tell-tale grinding marks so I decided to risk it.

When I got it home I immediately consulted Kriegsmodell and was pleased to find that the receiver is an Erma contract and the bolt might be Astrawerke. The barrel code appears to be fxo bo, with a e/37 and a star looking symbol. I was slightly concerned about the stock, it looked too dark compared to the white laminate examples in the book but those are 44s. However, when I took it apart I found that the stock is matching.

The finish on it is really nice, and I like that Sauer also made Gewehr 98s. I just need to find correct parts to replace the missing pieces.
 

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Great rifle Mantis, congrats, thanks for sharing it with us. Pic stickied for reference.
 
Thanks for sharing, Mantis.

My first and only 98K is also a CE43 - serial # 2516 t.
Other than my non-matching bolt, lots of similarities that I see to yours, like the locations of the stamps, the inner-stock markings, etc.
My barrel is an "fxo au", also with the #37 WaA.
The remainder of the rifle has the #280 WaA.
Looks like your floor plate is the milled version, and is correctly stamped to match.
Mine is a stamped floor plate, with no serial number but has a "byf" manufacturer code and a "135" WaA, and I've been wondering if there's still a chance it could be the original FP to this rifle. Any ideas?
 

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Thanks for the comments everyone. As soon as I find a band retention spring I'm going to look at repairing the duffle cut; as of right now all I have done is taken some bronze wool to the buttplate to stop some rust.

Berger, thanks for the pictures of your ce 43. Just out of curiosity, is your retention spring serial numbered? Sorry I can't really help you with the floorplate, but it does look like its original to the triggerguard.
 
Excellent pick up Cyrus, - the CGH barrel is nice too, as now you cover two Imperial makers!

CGH (fxo) barrels are very common throughout 1943-1944, and earlier as well as it is harder to tell Sauer & CGH apart earlier on. Regarding the bolt, the bottom flat, it has no acceptance, right? This would be typical of Sauer in this range, often, almost always they have no acceptance and only the small fireproof at the back stem.
Only if it has "l" and or e/1 would it be Astrawerke made, which so far hasn't occurred in the trends work. I do not know for sure on the band spring, but guessing I would say it isn't serialed, but few ever show this part and I have never owned a ce/43.

Regarding the other rifle, 2526 t, the trigger guard is likely right, they did use stamped trigger guards this early, though milled tg & fp are far more common, - both should be serialed though. No acceptance is proper for tg/fp. Imo the floorplate is not original, as they are serialed well after the "t" block, as you can see with this "dd" block. (actually the floorplates are serialed till the end, in 1944)

BTW, Cyrus, could you image the siderail, and tell me if ANY other part not imaged has an acceptance stamp? I know what it should be but I like to be through in the trends work, as while consistency is boring, it is also reassuring.
 
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Thanks to SimonSuhl.
Not sure I follow your statement below. The 2516t is my CE43, not Mantis's (see second group of pix above).
If my FP is not serialed, but has a "byf" and a WaA code stamped on it, what's your assessment of whether it is matched to this rifle or not?
Sounds like you're saying that it should have a 2516 serial stamped on it with no WaA, in order for it be an original match?


"Regarding the other rifle, 2526 t, the trigger guard is likely right, they did use stamped trigger guards this early, though milled tg & fp are far more common, - both should be serialed though. No acceptance is proper for tg/fp. Imo the floorplate is not original, as they are serialed well after the "t" block, as you can see with this "dd" block. (actually the floorplates are serialed till the end, in 1944)"

Also - Curious about the "Duffle Cut" term.
Could that really mean what it sounds like?: That Vets would actually cut the weapon down to fit into their duffle bags to better facilitate the "bring back"??
 
Imo the floorplate is not original, as they are serialed well after the "t" block, as you can see with this "dd" block. (actually the floorplates are serialed till the end, in 1944)



bergerboy.....the floorplate is not original to your rifle. it would have been milled and serial numbered. what simsonsuhl is saying is that your rifle is a t block....and jp sauer serial numbered their floorplates all the way through at least the dd block in 1943. ive logged them into the gg block....and as far as i know also to the end of production in 1944. also, they used almost exclusively milled floorplates, yours is stamped
 
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Paul, that's great that the barrel is CGH. And since the receiver in Erma its almost like it has lineage from three Imperial makers. I'll get some additional pictures this evening. I have most of it imaged I just need to zoom and crop.

Berger, he was talking about your ce 43. Your triggerguard is correct, but your floorplate is a replacement. It should have a serial number, like mine does.
Duffle Cut is exactly what it sounds like; soldiers with souvenirs often had to cut the stock and disassemble the rifles then put them in a duffle bag to get them back to the states. At least WWII cuts seem to usually be under the rear barrel band, most of the my WWI duffle cuts are right in the middle of the stock.
 
Here is an image of the siderail and the underside of the receiver. The only other e/280 acceptance I can find is under the receiver and its partially cut off the on the bottom. It didn't photograph well for some reason. Should there be another acceptance somewhere else that I am missing?

Also, here are two images of the bolt where stamps that look like 1s are located. This is why I suspected it was an Astrawerke bolt.
 

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I was speaking of your rifle, - typically Sauer didn't use stamped floorplates, at least not that I have seen, they did use stamped trigger guards, sparingly at first in 1943, more in 1944 but milled seems most common even then. When stamped trigger guards were used, typically milled floorplates are still used. Both serialed till the very end in 1944, though I think they did drop serialing in the last blocks of 1944 for the trigger guard. This should be in KM, easy to look up, if interested.

BTW, can you do an image of the siderail and right side of your receiver? I have a bunch of pics of this 2516 t but not those two angles.

Thanks to SimonSuhl.
Not sure I follow your statement below. The 2516t is my CE43, not Mantis's (see second group of pix above).
If my FP is not serialed, but has a "byf" and a WaA code stamped on it, what's your assessment of whether it is matched to this rifle or not?
Sounds like you're saying that it should have a 2516 serial stamped on it with no WaA, in order for it be an original match?


"Regarding the other rifle, 2526 t, the trigger guard is likely right, they did use stamped trigger guards this early, though milled tg & fp are far more common, - both should be serialed though. No acceptance is proper for tg/fp. Imo the floorplate is not original, as they are serialed well after the "t" block, as you can see with this "dd" block. (actually the floorplates are serialed till the end, in 1944)"

Also - Curious about the "Duffle Cut" term.
Could that really mean what it sounds like?: That Vets would actually cut the weapon down to fit into their duffle bags to better facilitate the "bring back"??
 
Thanks Cyrus, excellent!

The bolt isn't Astrawerke, it is probably Sauer made, - or CGH, as per Jim Cates document about Sauer production of the 98k (it was used in Joe Steen's article in the MRJ, an early issue, 2007-2008, check it out, if you can't find it let me know and I will send you a pdf.)

Astrawerke components will have a "l" (lower case "L") under the stem, early on they also have the waffenamt for Chemnitz, e/1 there. This was dropped over time, just the Astrawerke code being used.


Here is an image of the siderail and the underside of the receiver. The only other e/280 acceptance I can find is under the receiver and its partially cut off the on the bottom. It didn't photograph well for some reason. Should there be another acceptance somewhere else that I am missing?

Also, here are two images of the bolt where stamps that look like 1s are located. This is why I suspected it was an Astrawerke bolt.
 
I was speaking of your rifle, - typically Sauer didn't use stamped floorplates, at least not that I have seen, they did use stamped trigger guards, sparingly at first in 1943, more in 1944 but milled seems most common even then. When stamped trigger guards were used, typically milled floorplates are still used. Both serialed till the very end in 1944, though I think they did drop serialing in the last blocks of 1944 for the trigger guard. This should be in KM, easy to look up, if interested.

BTW, can you do an image of the siderail and right side of your receiver? I have a bunch of pics of this 2516 t but not those two angles.

Thanks Simson.

Assuming this floor plate is a mis-match, what are the chances of ever locating the original matching fp? Do collectors ever find any luck trying to reunite components with matching numbers?

Here's a few more photos of my CE43.
Not sure what exactly you mean by "side rail", so I took photos of the receiver side markings showing the S/N and the WaA.
Also the side opening of the receiver.

Actually feels pretty cool to get my rifle "cataloged" into the records.
Are you compiling records for all Sauer's? I noticed your screen name has Suhl in it, and thought you might consider yourself a historian and specialist on Sauer's, which I researched were made in the town of Suhl. Not too far from the Frankfurt / Wiesbaden area that I travel to frequently for my work. Would you know if there are any remnants of the factory there? Or any historical markers for it in Suhl?
I know that the Germans don't typically have fond memories of that dark period in their history, but they do acknowledge it, and sometimes I've found memorials and markers for such sites (WWI & WWII) in my travels over there.
The historical facet of this new hobby I've entered, really intrigues me.
Not to mention the fun of shooting working firearms from long ago!
 

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Thanks for the comments everyone. As soon as I find a band retention spring I'm going to look at repairing the duffle cut; as of right now all I have done is taken some bronze wool to the buttplate to stop some rust.

Berger, thanks for the pictures of your ce 43. Just out of curiosity, is your retention spring serial numbered? Sorry I can't really help you with the floorplate, but it does look like its original to the triggerguard.

Mantis: Here are a couple of photos of my retention spring - no serial numbers or markings of any kind.
Should there be?
Is this a big deal, to have some of the smaller miscellaneous parts be un-numbered and seemingly mis-matched? (even though none on my rifle are serial number mis-matched - other than the bolt)

Also - Tried to start a new thread on another topic, and no one is biting:
Any one have any luck with these scope mounts that can be retro-fitted in place of the rear leaf site?
They are non-destructive, and seem to be a good option to be able to take a vintage 98k out hunting, and upgrade it modern optics.
Would need a long-eye-relief scope since it mounts further forward, but I've seen plenty of them available online from $50 and up..
 

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Thanks, - finding the original floorplate is practically impossible, but you could just find a milled, unserialed fp, few would even notice or suspect it as unoriginal. Of course you could leave it as is too, who can say how long it has been like this.

Siderail is where the Model designation is located, it's changes, script, block, or absence, I track.

I track all German military rifles 1888-1945, plus a few other countries to a degree, Poland, Czechs, Brits and of course the US, though mostly with a focus on manufacturing (companies) and industry in general. Simson Suhl stands today, recently got some cool pictures of the place, an overpass seems to go over it's property. I have heard Sauer was torn down for public housing, an old MRJ article, where the author visited it toured the place before the proposed clearing. I do not know if it was completely destroyed. CGH I think stands, but not sure really, I have a couple German books on HK and CGH but didn't pay much attention to current status. Walther in Z-M was mostly torn down I believe, but a building or two was spared, so I heard.

Yes the Germans do seem to have plenty of regrets and acknowledges their past, but it is too bad those countries that participated in Versailles, and those that conspired well into the nazi era do not take a similar view to their culpability in the rise of Hitler. The plague of Hitler's gangster government wasn't a German creation, they were but his first victim, - Europe created Hitler, and most of Germany's neighbors are as responsible as Germany for his reign of terror.
 
Thanks for the spring images. Yours and two others I have seen from ce 43s have not been numbered, so I think its safe to say that they shouldn't be, and getting an unnumbered one for mine shouldn't be much of a problem.

Mantis: Here are a couple of photos of my retention spring - no serial numbers or markings of any kind.
Should there be?
 

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