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Thread: 1942 'ce 42' JP Sauer K98

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    Default 1942 'ce 42' JP Sauer K98

    Posting some photos of an all matching 1942 'ce 42 Sauer K98. Mid war transition model with fewer parts proofed and serial #ed. Comments and questions welcomed!

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    Default Few More Pics of the 1942 'ce 42' K98

    Few more photos of the 1942 'ce 42'........

    DSC03268.jpgDSC03249.jpgDSC03269.jpgDSC03271.jpgDSC03270.jpg

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    Default ce 42

    Nice looking rifle. It looks totally honest (a real Veteran).
    Bob32268

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    Moderator² Loewe's Avatar
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    Have you an image of the siderail? (Mod.98) I track this in my trends work.

    Interestingly, S&S (Sauer) drops serialing the barrel not long before this rifle, up through the mid "d", early "e" block both barrel & receiver are serialed, this changes by the early "e" block, though hard to say exactly when it occurs because not everyone takes such good & detailed pictures of their rifles.

    I saw your posts on Gunboards this morning also, really a nice selection, and interesting that you bought them all 20 plus years ago, at roughly the same time, and that you did so well! Not a lot of good information readily available back then, and I remember the time quite well, as I was buying then also, - not as many humpers certainly but it was also a time of limited information, so you could get snookered easily back then also. I got stuck a number of times, I subsequently found out..

    Re- the changes in serialing and acceptance (not proofs), were part of the general rationalization of German industry. While Germany had been officially on a war footing since before the war, it was never really taken too serious, until the winter of 1941-42, when due to the circumstances brought on by the failure of the Russian campaign, Hitler personally intervened, starting in September 1941, increasingly so through November, he finally brought the will and authority required to overcome the most stubborn resistance (mostly German political officials, Gauleiter’s, petty bureaucrats protecting turf, and an idiotic procurement program - and military interference requiring constant changes to programs.. all hindered mass production, which was well under way in the US and Britain) to the obvious need to rationalize industry for total war. By early 1942, most armament firms production began to show a minimalist approach to serialing and acceptance, in the case of some firms, like S&S and MB, they even dropped acceptance of the bolt bodies when the parts were made in-house (not subcontracted).

    Later some of these rather aggressive changes were toned back, acceptance comes back for obvious reasons, some serialing in key areas, as the original orders were taken a little too serious, and after all acceptance is primarily a function of responsibility, its purpose is to be able to identify problems when they develop, and serialing is really a necessity when your industry hasn't achieved complete interchangeability with its components, as the German industry never really did. (It could have, German machine tool industry was nearly the equal of the United States back then, - no one was better, back then, over the US in machine tooling, but due to the nature of German rearmament, it was never implemented before the war..)
    Last edited by Loewe; 05-13-2012 at 03:30 PM.
    Hence, that which we have to express in a precise way, is the liberty of each limited only by the like liberties of all. This we do by saying: - Every man is free to do that which he wills, provided he infringes not the equal freedom of any other man. Herbert Spencer

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Have you an image of the siderail? (Mod.98) I track this in my trends work.

    Interestingly, S&S (Sauer) drops serialing the barrel not long before this rifle, up through the mid "d", early "e" block both barrel & receiver are serialed, this changes by the early "e" block, though hard to say exactly when it occurs because not everyone takes such good & detailed pictures of their rifles.

    I saw your posts on Gunboards this morning also, really a nice selection, and interesting that you bought them all 20 plus years ago, at roughly the same time, and that you did so well! Not a lot of good information readily available back then, and I remember the time quite well, as I was buying then also, - not as many humpers certainly but it was also a time of limited information, so you could get snookered easily back then also. I got stuck a number of times, I subsequently found out..

    Re- the changes in serialing and acceptance (not proofs), were part of the general rationalization of German industry. While Germany had been officially on a war footing since before the war, it was never really taken too serious, until the winter of 1941-42, when due to the circumstances brought on by the failure of the Russian campaign, Hitler personally intervened, starting in September 1941, increasingly so through November, he finally brought the will and authority required to overcome the most stubborn resistance (mostly German political officials, Gauleiter’s, petty bureaucrats protecting turf, and an idiotic procurement program - and military interference requiring constant changes to programs.. all hindered mass production, which was well under way in the US and Britain) to the obvious need to rationalize industry for total war. By early 1942, most armament firms production began to show a minimalist approach to serialing and acceptance, in the case of some firms, like S&S and MB, they even dropped acceptance of the bolt bodies when the parts were made in-house (not subcontracted).

    Later some of these rather aggressive changes were toned back, acceptance comes back for obvious reasons, some serialing in key areas, as the original orders were taken a little too serious, and after all acceptance is primarily a function of responsibility, its purpose is to be able to identify problems when they develop, and serialing is really a necessity when your industry hasn't achieved complete interchangeability with its components, as the German industry never really did. (It could have, German machine tool industry was nearly the equal of the United States back then, - no one was better, back then, over the US in machine tooling, but due to the nature of German rearmament, it was never implemented before the war..)
    As always I appreciate your comments and remarks about these Mausers. It's a learning experience for me to hear about the changes in the manufacturing process as the war progressed. The wealth of knowledge from experienced collectors really adds to the limited amount of info that I possess.

    I started collecting in the late 80's by buying a couple of Mausers at the local gun shows. I then became a member of "KCN", Chris Cox's publication, and my collection grew from there. I continued to buy from local sources and did buy a few from 'Cape Cod Military Collectibles' and from Mike Wamsher. All matching guns were not too difficult to find and G33/40's, G98/40's, etc....were available. By that time matching snipers were quite rare and you had to know what to look for. Mismatched snipers were somewhat available and matching 'sharpshooter' Mausers (zf/41) could be found for $1500-$2500. Those were the good times!! After a while I had too many so first I sold the ones I felt were incorrect and then sold most of the others that weren't JP Sauer. I settled on Sauer after buying a Sauer High Turret and Short Side Rail from Wamsher in the early 90's. By that time my family was growing and my gun collecting interest waned. I've recently renewed my interest in these rifles.

    Again I appreciate your comments and will take a picture of the Mod.98 siderail marking on this gun next week. Let me know if any other areas that you would like to see.

    Just one question, can you tell what serial # letter block this ce 42 is in? Is it an 'f' ? The photo is not clear but I've seen this 'letter' on other rifles as well. Thanks Again, James
    Last edited by starsnbars56; 05-13-2012 at 10:25 PM. Reason: added info

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob32268 View Post
    Nice looking rifle. It looks totally honest (a real Veteran).
    Bob32268
    I appreciate the comment, it is totally honest in my opinion, from looking at the metal I do believe the previous owner used some steel wool to clean some surface rust off, the scratches show in some of the pics.

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    James, it is an "f" and is correct in every way. S&S is one of the more difficult firms to decipher the suffixes, "e", "L" and "b" are often easily confused if the images are not clear.

    S&S is one of my favorite firms also, really the only privately held firm that assembled rifles. BLM, Mauser, ERMA privately held but hardly "family" businesses, - the rest were all state owned to one degree or another. Of course in a socialist state, like nazi Germany was, there was no real "private property" or even any real decision making as far as manufacturing went, - hell even in the "democracies", like the United States production was very "socialized" during the war, strict controls and government interference that would make obama blush was widespread.

    Re- siderails, just confirming what each rifle possesses is fine for my work, I trend changes among all the manufacturers and this is one of the things I track. I know what they should be, of course, but I rather like to leave nothing to chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by starsnbars56 View Post
    Just one question, can you tell what serial # letter block this ce 42 is in? Is it an 'f' ? The photo is not clear but I've seen this 'letter' on other rifles as well. Thanks Again, James
    Hence, that which we have to express in a precise way, is the liberty of each limited only by the like liberties of all. This we do by saying: - Every man is free to do that which he wills, provided he infringes not the equal freedom of any other man. Herbert Spencer

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    James, it is an "f" and is correct in every way. S&S is one of the more difficult firms to decipher the suffixes, "e", "L" and "b" are often easily confused if the images are not clear.

    S&S is one of my favorite firms also, really the only privately held firm that assembled rifles. BLM, Mauser, ERMA privately held but hardly "family" businesses, - the rest were all state owned to one degree or another. Of course in a socialist state, like nazi Germany was, there was no real "private property" or even any real decision making as far as manufacturing went, - hell even in the "democracies", like the United States production was very "socialized" during the war, strict controls and government interference that would make obama blush was widespread.

    Re- siderails, just confirming what each rifle possesses is fine for my work, I trend changes among all the manufacturers and this is one of the things I track. I know what they should be, of course, but I rather like to leave nothing to chance.
    Posting some pics of the 'Mod 98' siderail on the ce 42 #8604 'f'. Will post a few more photos of some earlier Sauers with the siderail marking plus a late war Sauer High Turret siderail with an e/280 'Erma' receiver.

    ce 42.....#8604 'f'

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    1940 '147'....#4426 't' Both 1940 '147''s that I have (both in the 't' block) show the same style of 'Mod 98' on the siderail.

    DSC03302.jpg

    1937 S/147....#9218 'h' Both 1937 S/147's that I have show the same style of 'Mod 98' on the siderail.

    DSC03303.jpgDSC03304.jpgDSC03305.jpg

    1941 '147'.....#1853 'n' Both 1941 '147''s that I have show the same style of 'Mod 98' on the siderail.

    DSC03306.jpgDSC03307.jpgDSC03309.jpg

    Siderail of a late war Sauer High Turret sniper....has an e/280 'Erma" acceptance stamp on the right receiver partly hidden under the front scope mount. Not able to see with the fuzzy photo.

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    Forgot to post the siderail of a 1936 S/147 rifle....#1828 'a'. This rifle has a blank siderail, yet a 1936 S/147 'c' block recently posted by 8X57 Mauser on gunboards shows a siderail marked 'Mod 98'. My 'a' block is bare and doesn't show any signs of having the 'Mod 98' buffed out.

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    Wow, some real nice rifles you have been posting! I would like to see more of the S&S LSR

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